Oncology Etc – Global Cancer Policy Leader Dr. Richard Sullivan Part 2

"Battling cancer takes place in many parts of the world and our next guest has led initiatives to do just that. In Part Two of this Oncology, Etc. Podcast episode, Professor of Cancer and Global Health at King’s College London Dr Richard Sullivan shares with us his research into cancer care in conflict zones around the world (0:58), his thoughts on “colonial” cancer research (5:50), his advice to people interested in pursuing a career in global oncology field (10:08) and using “pooled procurement” as an innovative approach to cancer care (11:13). Participant Disclosures Dr. Richard Sullivan: Honoraria – Pfizer; Consulting or Advisory Role – Pfizer Dr. David Johnson: Consulting or Advisory Role – Merck, Pfizer, Aileron Therapeutics, Boston University Dr. Patrick Loehrer: Research Funding – Novartis, Lilly Foundation, Taiho Pharmaceutical If you liked this episode, please follow the podcast. To explore other episodes, as well as courses visit https://education.asco.org or contact us at [email protected]. TRANSCRIPT The disclosures for guests on this podcast can be found in the show notes.  Pat Loehrer: Hi. I'm Pat Loehrer, director of Global Oncology and Health Equity at Indiana University. I'm here with Dave Johnson, a medical oncologist at the University of Texas Southwestern in Dallas, Texas, and a friend of mine. This is the second half of our Oncology Etc. conversation with the professor of cancer and global health at King's College in London and the director of the King's Institute of Cancer Policy and the co-director of the Conflict and Health Research Group, Dr. Richard Sullivan. In part one, we chatted with Professor Sullivan about his international travels as a child to his transition from biochemistry and finally to a great career in health policy and research. Today we're going to continue our conversation with Professor Sullivan by asking him about his insight into the current state of the progress in global health care. Richard Sullivan: Conflict and fragile populations around the world are sadly growing. They're unique ecosystems for a whole variety of reasons. I think fundamentally, though, to do research in those systems requires a huge amount of sensitivity and experience and expertise because you're dealing with the most vulnerable of the most vulnerable. And then, of course, whatever research you do, you're constantly thinking in the back of your mind how you then tie this into any form of impact. There is a tendency, often with research in these populations, that the research is just done for the researcher's sake rather than actually being utilized to help improve those lives you're actually involving and studying. But I admit it's a very tricky area to work in. Cancer in conflict populations, a particular interest is a relatively new domain. It's only really been around for the last eight to ten years for a variety of very understandable reasons. Let's be honest, 30 years ago, cancer was not a significant factor in humanitarian conflict operations. You were dealing with demographically untransitioned societies, much younger. Really the group one, infectious diseases, child and maternal mortality, et cetera, were the primary foci. That still is the case. But what we're seeing now is much more transitioned populations being impacted by conflicts. And you think about in Mexico, in the Narco Wars, Syria, Iraq, even Afghanistan, and all of those have changed dramatically the nature of how care is delivered and how patients move. And we call these new therapeutic pathways, and we consider them kind of post-Westfalian. We're not talking about cancer care anymore that's boundaried within nation states. Patients moving across national lines, we have patients moving in pathways which are absolutely unique and we've never experienced or seen before in the high-income West. And that means you have to have a different paradigm for care and a different paradigm for building cancer control systems. And I guess for the last ten to fifteen years that's what we've really been interested in is this dynamic of conflict populations and how you deliver care and who delivers it. And there, of course, you're talking with a very mixed act, a bunch: humanitarian organizations, the big NGOs, the ICRCs, Medecins Sans Frontières. You're talking about the militaries in many countries. The militaries are very powerful in many countries in terms of providing care. And then finally there is, of course, the health services or systems that exist to varying degrees in the individual countries infected by conflict. So our program really tries to understand how you strengthen health systems per se in these conflict populations. And obviously, my particular interest is in cancer and palliative care. But I'm going to be honest, for that we have a very large team, some remarkable colleagues I've worked with over the years, sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East, and increasingly, there's a lot of leadership coming out from these countries taking these sorts of programs forward. It's an important time, and I think Ukraine has taught us as well that if you don't think about, for example, cancer care within humanitarian operations, within UNHCR, you can end up in serious trouble in terms of planning, financing, sustainability. So I think Ukraine is going to be an interesting turning point in generally thinking about cancer care and conflict and humanitarian operations because it's really illuminated to everyone very clearly in Europe and the USA, what cancer and conflict really is, because I think the Middle East has felt a little bit far away, and it's been quite difficult selling all that kind of policy and work. But Ukraine is really having a dramatic impact and I think it's producing a lot of learning points. Dave Johnson: You recently published, along with colleagues, I thought, a very provocative paper in JAMA Open Network about the participation of lower and upper middle-income countries in oncology clinical trials led by high-income countries. You made the point, be sure to correct me if I'm wrong on this, that first of all, Ukraine and Russia are actually two of the top participants in these kinds of trials. Number one. Number two, the question is, is it exploitative of the higher-income countries to be conducting these trials in these two countries and then more particularly, what the recent conflict in Ukraine has done to the participation of patients? And I wonder if you might comment on those points. Richard Sullivan: I’ll maybe talk to the last point first. The conflict has been devastating for recruitment. It's also important to realize a lot of these sorts of clinical trials are funded by industry and they've been the backbone of funding research and also to a greater degree also access to certain types of medicines in these countries. Is it exploitative? I think it's a very hard judgment call to make and I think if you ask my Ukrainian colleagues, the answer is no. We know exactly what we were getting into. When companies work in these places, they pay and they pay properly. The difficulty I think is, generally speaking, there is obviously this discussion now ongoing about neocolonialism and exploitation of low middle-income settings more generally. It's very hard, all the research we've been doing, it's very hard to make generalizations. There is absolutely no doubt. I want to recognize right up front that there has been some appalling exploitation and what I would consider to be colonial cancer research going on over the last 20 years. And it's blindingly obvious when you read papers, when you look at authorship, when you undo this sort of analysis, that there has been a lot of exploitation where high-income countries are parachuted in. Investigators have taken whatever they needed data, samples, interview data, made good careers on the back of it and good research funding, and not really put much back into the ecosystem they've been working with. So that's absolutely clear up front. Then we have this other problem, as well as research funding generally, because if you step back and look at the data, and this is something we've published on, actually, with Julie Gralow, and ASCO, we talk the talk about funding global cancer, that's big, high, powerful, wealthy, high-income countries. But when you actually look at the data and you ask that question, of all the cancer research publications, how many from the USA, the UK, the Frances, the Germany are actually with lower middle-income countries, you barely get above 4%. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize we taught the talk here, but we're not walking the walk. The money is not being provided to do genuinely equal collaborative work. We've not built capacity and capability in many countries in terms of clinical research methodologies and strengths. We failed to back up a lot of the rhetoric. We talk about global cancer with actually proper cancer research system strengthening. And I think there's that realization, and there's been that realization over the last five or six years that that's been the case. And when you take countries like India who kind of realized, you know, maybe ten to fifteen years ago this was the case, they've obviously gone themselves and driven their own agenda. So the National Cancer Grid of India, the development of Credo, the methodology workforces led by Dr. C.S. Pramesh from the Tata Memorial Centre, has been absolutely superb work. I mean, it's been amazing. A real master class in national development. But I think we do, as high-income countries have to think, look ourselves in the mirror and ask the question, is this what we mean by global cancer? Are we really putting enough money in? And are our research priorities right? You've heard me argue about this enormous amount, about how much money goes into discovery science and biopharmaceuticals. Where's the money going into implementation science, health services research, social science research, health economics, all the stuff that actually leads to direct improvements by strengthening cancer systems. It's a drop in the ocean compared to the billions and billions a year that have been spent in these other areas. So I think the agenda is unbalanced. But I think when you talk about exploitation, you have to be kind of more nuanced about that argument. Pat Loehrer: Richard, we were just at the World Cancer Congress and it was heartening to see all these wonderful young people from around the world thinking about global oncology and various different aspects of things. But I'm thinking about Brexit. I'm thinking about some of the issues going on in our country in which we are hunkered down to issues in our own country. P30 grants for the cancer centers are focused on issues in our catchment area. They have an illusion of global stuff, but it's really not a priority. What would you say to young people who are interested in pursuing a career in global oncology? Is this something that's worthwhile for them to do, and what would you advise them? Richard Sullivan: Yes, it's absolutely worthwhile to do. And I think two pieces of advice I would have is develop, first of all, your interests with friends. The work we do around the world is with friends. These are close colleagues. This is not some instrumental transactional research program of sending your samples to a genome lab for them to sequence it and send back to you. These are really long-term true friendships. That's what makes the difference, is that long-term commitment, year after year, decade after decade. So find out where it is and what it is you're really passionate about. Make those friends and then develop the suite of knowledge that you're going to require to do the kind of research. I mean, the thing with global cancer is it requires a very broad outlook. It doesn't matter what you are the master of; whether you're an epidemiologist or social scientist - mixed methods is absolutely the way to go. What you have to be able to do then is sort of think more broadly about other sorts of disciplines to bring out, because most of the really complex problems require a very transdisciplinary approach methodologically, and that takes a few years to build the insight into these other disciplines and also to make research relationships. And again, there is no substitute for experience in terms of going to places, working with people, working on projects. And of course, with that comes the advocacy. Cancer crosses borders, the advocacy for global cancer. You need people who are going to be passionate about this, who are really going to stand up and shout from the rooftops what's really needed and change, I think, the minds of both national and the philanthropic funders, which, as you said, Pat, you're spot on, are still very, very insular, very inward looking in terms of how they see the world of cancer research. And I think it needs a bit of a sea change. But the opportunities are out there. There's some, as we know, wonderful, wonderful people working all over the world on really, really different problems. Building capacity in surgery in Zambia is not the same as building capacity in surgery in one of the states in India, for example. So there's an incredible richness and diversity. It's a really, really important area. And I think younger crowds don't get put off because there's no clear pathway and there's a reason there's no clear pathway. It's so diverse, but it's absolutely worth it. And there's plenty of us, I think, out there now that can help. There's some great conferences like the Word Cancer Congress, amazing regional conferences like AORTIC, which is happening in Senegal next year, the big conferences in India. Absolutely superb. Just go immerse yourself in this. Dave Johnson: You've talked about a lot of different innovative approaches to cancer care and lower- and middle-income countries. One thing that I read that you'd written about was something that I had never thought about. I think you called it pooled procurement. Can you talk about that? Where maybe two countries can join together? It seems irrational to me that we could expect something like that to happen. Are you aware of any examples? Richard Sullivan: It's interesting because I’ve the pleasure of working with a lot of colleagues over the years on access to essential cancer medicines. And it's interesting because we're now getting into a domain in global health, which again is very rich for more learning, for more people coming into which is the political economy of cancer. Because this is where the disciplines of health economics, decision procurement, logistics, all kind of fuse together, as well as an understanding of power and decision making in individual countries. So, in and of itself, procurement is where groups of countries or centers within a particular country will come together to create sufficient volume to negotiate with suppliers for a particular consumable. And that drives down the prices. You become much more powerful in negotiating prices if you can all get together. One of the biggest problems, and again, there's some amazing work that's been done, for example, by Chai on this, who have really innovated in the pool procurement medicine space. But we've also seen pool procurement as well for radiotherapy. If you can come together as large groups with common needs, you've got a lot more power to negotiate prices with individual suppliers. And more importantly, one of the problems with suppliers, whether it's essential medicines or other sorts of consumables, is if the market is too small, if you're trying to negotiate on a center by center basis, it's often it's just not worthwhile for the supplier to come to attend a deal with you. They don't want to contract with you because the volumes are too small and the margins are therefore too small. So pooled procurement is one way of getting around this. But I speak very easily about something that's actually a very complicated and complex subject. There's a lot of law involved in this, there's a lot of economics in this, there's a lot of business work in this. Again, it's one of those areas of research and expertise in the cancer area that's really quite thin and really needs to be bolstered. And here we're talking about the second translational gap is you've got the Essential Cancer Medicines list - how on Earth do you deliver that in an equitable and affordable manner to population X and country Y? That is in of itself a research question, that falls under the political economy of cancer in terms of research, but again, also falls out with most research funding organizations who don't quite know how to handle supporting this sort of research and capacity building. But as you can see, absolutely crucial. Great. You've invented the drug, you've invented the new surgical technique, or the new form of radiotherapy. It delivers clinically meaningful benefits. So how on Earth do you embed that in a sustainable manner in a health system? And that is a big missing gap in the global research agenda. Pat Loehrer: You can have all the drugs and radiation equipment in the world, but if you don't have the healthcare professionals trained to give it, it's worthless. I think one statistic was that there's 176 physicians in the United States for every one in Uganda. And how do you deliver cancer care by trained oncologists? It's getting more and more complex for us, too. But this has been just a wonderful discussion. Just as a quick question, though, Richard, Dave mentioned his book. Anything you're reading right now or anything of interest? Richard Sullivan: Yeah, yes, I've just started reading a fascinating book called Dadland by Keggie Carew. And it's fascinating because this is a marvelous piece of work, actually. And this is a daughter trying to make sense of her father's life. And she really sort of spends years patiently collecting all these details of her father's life and growing up with it. And she sort of takes, juxtaposes– when she starts the book, he's got dementia. But this is a man who in his early days was in Jedburgh, was a Special Operations executive, fought behind enemy lines in France in D-Day, went to the Far East in Burma. And there's this extraordinary pathos and sensitivity in this book about watching his decline with dementia, as she puts it, as he slowly disconnects from reality and then he disconnects from himself, and trying to make sense of it with the individual he once was and the kind of individual. And through that, she gets to explore all the kind of boxes of letters and things that were all stuck in the attic. Memento mori, essentially, of his time in Burma and France. But it's very, very touching, and I would really recommend your listeners to read it because it unpacks dementia in a way I've never seen a book unpack before in terms of the impact it makes to an individual. And it asks that question about - what makes you you? And when this father, he dies, is he still the same man who jumped out of airplanes in the middle of the night in France? Is he still the same man as he was in Burma? It's very touching. It's one of the most impressive books of exploration into human nature and an identity that I've read for a long time. So, yeah, Dadland, excellent. Pat Loehrer: I'll get it. Dave Johnson: Absolutely. Sounds great. Well, that's all the time we have for today, and I want to thank Richard Sullivan so much for joining Pat and me. This has been a fascinating conversation and you're to be congratulated on all of your many accomplishments and all the things that I'm sure you'll do in the future.   I want to take the opportunity to thank our listeners for tuning in to Oncology, etc. This is an ASCO Educational podcast where we'll talk about almost anything and everything. So if you have an idea for a topic or a guest you'd like to hear on our show, please email us at [email protected].       The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.   Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.