Spine Pain With Dr. Vernon Williams

Spine pain is one of the most common presenting concerns in health care settings. It is important for neurologists to understand strategies for evaluating and managing patients with spine pain. In this episode, Katie Grouse, MD, FAAN, speaks with Vernon B. Williams, MD, FAAN, author of the article “Spine Pain,” in the Continuum October 2024 Pain Management in Neurology issue. Dr. Grouse is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a clinical assistant professor at the University of California San Francisco in San Francisco, California. Dr. Williams is the director of the Center for Sports Neurology and Pain Medicine at Cedars-Sinai Kerlan-Jobe Institute in Los Angeles, California. Additional Resources Read the article: Spine Pain Subscribe to Continuum: shop.lww.com/Continuum Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN Guest: @VernWilliamsMD Transcript Full episode transcript available here Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum's guest editors and authors who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum Journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal, and how to get CME. Dr Grouse: This is Dr Katie Grouse. Today I'm interviewing Dr Vernon Williams about his article on spine pain, which appears in the October 2024 Continuum issue on pain management in neurology. Welcome to the podcast, and please introduce yourself to our audience.  Dr Williams: Oh, well, thanks for having me. My name is Vernon Williams and I'm a neurologist here in Southern California. Dr Grouse: So, I want to start off today by asking, what do you feel is the key message from your article? Dr Williams: So, I think the key message is that we want to make sure people understand that there's really a distinction between abnormal imaging, tissue damage, nociception, and this experience of spine pain. So, the concept is that nociception is different from the clinical experience of pain; nociception, meaning the electrical signaling from these, quote unquote, pain generators and that kind of thing. But it's really an incomplete framing. We really want people to understand that the experience of pain is colored by a number of other things, things like genetics, biochemical factors, behavior and psychological factors, social factors, those kinds of things. So that's one of the big messages, this distinction between nociception and this clinical experience of pain.  Dr Grouse: Why do you think it's important for neurology clinicians to read this article? Dr Williams: Well, I think, you know, for one thing, spine pain is very common. So, it is likely that neurologists will encounter patients who come to see them because of that chief complaint. But I think that if we want to really be successful at treating spine-related pain, then we really have to know all of that basic information, the basic knowledge that we came to learn as residents and medical students or what have you. But it's also important to know that that knowledge is necessary, but it's insufficient. You really also have to confront pain from the standpoint of these other things, these other behavioral factors, psychological factors, social factors, and you got to kind of combine those things to be the most successful in treating this very common condition.  Dr Grouse: You know, you mentioned earlier about the difference between tissue damage pain and nociception. I find this to be, you know, a really great lens thinking about these concepts to view this topic and your article specifically. Can you go a little more into what the difference between, specifically, pain and nociception really is? Dr Williams: Yeah. I mean, so when we talk about nociception, in many ways we're talking about the electrical activity. And so, there's the stimulation of these nerves, in the periphery typically, and that electrical signal is transmitted, you know, from those nociceptive fibers into the spinal cord. And it's headed from the first-order neuron to the second-order neuron and axons in the spinal cord and eventually reaches the brain. But essentially the concept is that it's not pain at that point. It's not pain until those signals reach the cortex and they are experienced in some context. And that context really colors whether or not, and to what extent, people experience pain or suffer pain as a result. So, when we think about nociception, we tend to think about kind of tissue damage or the threat of tissue damage. And in clinic, we tend to kind of focus on that and we look for relationships between abnormalities on imaging studies that could be causing those kinds of electrical signals. And we tend to focus less on that second but critical aspect of things, and that's that individual 's personal experience, which is colored by a number of different things: their attention, their expectation, colored by how we interact with them, our verbal and non-verbal communication with them. And again, like we talked about: their history, who are they, their genetics, their behavioral history, their psychological history and those kinds of things. So, it's really this combination of things that we have to be aware of when we're treating spine pain. And I think the tendency is for us to focus on the first half and less on the second half. Dr Grouse: Absolutely. I certainly think our training and our focus on localizing the lesion may in some ways hurt us in that sense because we really focus so much on the first and not so much the second. Would you say that's probably right? Dr Williams: Yeah, I mean, that's part of our heritage as clinicians, particularly neurologists. It's, where's the lesion? And so, what happens when there is no, quote unquote, lesion? What happens if there are multiple potential lesions? And so, these kinds of concepts, I think, become really important, and the context in which you're examining and evaluating that patient becomes important. And I think they are at least as important as the potential pain generator or the nociceptive signal.   Dr Grouse: Now, you mentioned earlier something about sort of how we approach the patient and the language we're putting out, the body language. I found the concept of nocebo and maladaptive pain-related neuroplasticity to be absolutely fascinating when I was reading your article, and I was really surprised to learn that clinicians can really contribute to this effect unknowingly through their body language, verbal language, nonverbal messaging, and even how they're interpreting the test results? When a patient comes to see you with chronic back pain, how do you approach the whole process to minimize this effect and, really, to set the stage for more constructive and therapeutic evaluation? Dr Williams: Yeah, Katie, I think that's… it's tough because our culture is so, you know, it's so ingrained in our culture to look for a structural abnormality as an explanation for an individual 's symptoms. And so, I find myself struggling with that all the time, not only discussing why we're ordering an imaging study, but, if that person comes back and I'm describing to them the abnormalities on that imaging study, I've got to be very careful about describing them in the context of what we expect. And so, I'll typically try to use words like, well, you've got some wear-and-tear changes that we all get, as compared to saying, well, you've got a disc herniation abnormality at L five S one that's causing your pain. That statement could have a negative effect on that individual's framing of what's going on. Maybe that L five S one disc is contributing to their symptoms and maybe it isn't. Maybe it's been there or for years and maybe it's new. And even if it is new, does that mean, in that patient's mind, that now they've got an abnormality that has to be fixed or else they will continue to have pain? And so, kind of trying to keep all of those things in mind is why we want to kind of color that interaction. And I mentioned both verbal and nonverbal interaction and communication with the patient, because I think that they are picking up on all of these signals. Some of them are very obvious and some of them are very subtle. But keep in mind their brains, their nervous systems are primed to interpret all of these signals, both verbal and nonverbal. And that's going to have a downstream - or upstream, I would say - effect on their framing and how they interpret the interaction and what they think it means for them and their future. So, you know, it's kind of a big thing to think about when you- every time you walk in a room, but it's an important thing to think about when we're communicating with patients.  Dr Grouse: It's absolutely fascinating and has really made me go back and think about, gosh, are there ways that I could have done things better to really message this in a more helpful way? And on that note, do you have any tips or tricks on how to put out that that messaging, both verbal and nonverbal; to be, you know, to avoid those pitfalls of kind of reinforcing the wrong message about tissue damage? Dr Williams: Yeah. I mean, so one of the main things is trying to be very purposeful about educating people on the difference between tissue damage or potential tissue damage and pain. And so being careful not to use statements like, well, I think your pain is coming from this disc or this structural abnormality because again, we want to try to separate those things. They are different. I think that, you know, how we discuss imaging studies is very important because you want people to understand that an imaging study is just that. It's anatomy and it doesn't equal function, it doesn't equal what they experience in terms of sensory symptoms and pain. But I think the goal is to try to be very purposeful and maybe even reexamine how we discuss those things or when we discuss those things. One of the things I've found helpful is kind of the order in which I perform my clinical assessment. So traditionally, I was taught, like many, take the history, do the physical examination, and then start to discuss and educate patients. Right? Here's the test I want to order, here's what I think may be going on, so on and so forth. I think in some cases it's more beneficial to take the history and, before the physical examination, discuss what I'm thinking, taking that opportunity to discuss the differences between nociception, tissue damage, the experience of pain, the importance of movement, so on and so forth. And then do the physical examination so that that person has some idea of what is it that he's looking for. How is this going to inform his opinions and recommendations and so on and so forth. But also provide them with the concept that movement, for instance, is safe unless they have certain kinds of red flags on their history. I'm encouraging movement and I'm encouraging them to recognize that some of these movements they may have predicted would have been painful for them actually aren't painful, and they may start to internalize the concept that they can do it once without paying, that probably means that they're not damaging themselves every time they perform that movement. And if they can do one pain-free rep, that's important, and that may counteract the concept that they are damaging themselves every time they move and every time they feel pain, that means that there's tissue damage. So, what we talk about, how we talk about it and even when we talk about it during the course of that evaluation may have some negative or positive effects. And it may be beneficial to kind of think about those things and whether or not our typical approach might be the best or maybe we can improve on that or adjust that, particularly in certain situations and with certain patients. Dr Grouse: That’s absolutely fascinating, and great tips I think that all of our listeners will want to incorporate as we're approaching this patient population. You know, in your article, I also wanted to talk about, you mentioned some really interesting treatments for pain is that I think would include, or would, fall under the category of neuromodulation. Can you summarize some of these options for us? Dr Williams: Yeah. I mean, so I think that the concept of neuromodulation, I tend to think of it in a very holistic sense. And so not only focusing on the application of external stimuli and that could be, you know, electrical stimuli, magnetic stimuli, cryo, analgesia, those kinds of things in order to turn up or down nervous system activity, electrical signals, what have you. I think of neuromodulation in a global sense. I think in a way, cognitive restructuring and education, in a way, is a form of neuromodulation. It's affecting how that individual frames the concept of their pain, structural changes versus experience, so on and so forth. But generally, I'm talking about these kinds of things. So, there are some very interesting approaches with electrical stimulation and it doesn't necessarily have to be permanent implantation of a stimulator as we tend to think about with spinal cord stimulation, but there are some interesting temporary peripheral nerve stimulators that that can be very helpful for various kinds of spinal pain. And then there's also these technologies that I find fascinating. Some of them are in the wearables category. So, combining the education and framing and cognitive restructuring with things like virtual reality, there are some interesting programs that combine some predictive modeling with virtual reality, such that an individual has goggles on, they are participating in some activity that requires them to move in a certain direction and move to a certain extent that may or may not match what they are seeing visually in the goggles. So, you can kind of begin to kind of dissociate their expectation of when they may experience pain as a function of their movement from what actually happens. So, these kinds of things, I think, are really interesting ways to augment our traditional approaches to pain, physical therapy, rehabilitation, medications, some kinds of injections, with these additional approaches that really have an effect on the nervous system as opposed to just focusing on what I would call kind of the mechanical anatomy, the joints and the discs and what have you, with traditional approaches. Dr Grouse: It's really exciting to hear about some of these new options that can be tried to help with this neuromodulation and sort of cognitive restructuring. Of course, understanding that there's some things that we do ourselves that do this in the clinic encounter, which I think is a great reminder. I wanted to touch on, in your article, you had mentioned that we really have to be aware as clinicians, that health inequities and disparities and even the social determinants of health have inevitable effects on spine pain. How can our listeners better recognize and ensure equitable care for this patient population, particularly in light of the fact that many of these therapies that we've just been talking about can be difficult to access even in the best circumstances? Dr Williams: Well, you know, thanks for asking that question. I think that's a great question. I think from the standpoint of, you know, health equity and addressing, you know, disparities and that kind of thing, the first thing is to just acknowledge and recognize that these things are present. And even, you know, though we may have the best intentions, there may be scenarios where our practices are affected and our patients are affected by these kinds of things. So, I think the first thing is the acknowledgement. And then the second thing is kind of trying to figure out if there are things that we can do as individual practitioners, or our offices can do or the entities that we interact with, maybe that's a hospital system or what have you to address these kinds of things. So, we know, for instance, from the standpoint of race and ethnicity, there's disparities with respect to African Americans, with Hispanics and other ethnic minorities and the kind of care they receive. We know that access resulting from insurance coverage and geographical limitations, that kind of thing can be significant. And interestingly, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is uninsured. So, for instance, we will often see individuals who've had work injuries and who are covered by the workers’ compensation system have certain limitations placed on what they have access to, often resulting in lots of frustration from those patients. And that's a reality that we sometimes have to work really hard to overcome. Socioeconomic status, provider bias. And again, this is something that we have to kind of do some internal searching to say, hey, am I approaching these individuals on a on a more equal and equitable basis, or am I also subject to some of the biases that that I've been exposed to and trying to overcome that? So, I think that's a huge part of the context. And when we talk about how we learn, whether we're talking about spine pain or anything else, I'm a believer in that kind of cycle of pedagogy that includes content-based information, which is kind of the very basic foundational information, that includes things we can memorize and definitions we can memorize. And that may include things like what we've talked about relative to kind of the nociception and pain pathways, so on and so forth. But then there are concepts, and we've talked about the concept of verbal communication and nonverbal communication, the concept of cognitive restructuring and neuromodulation as an approach. But then context is kind of that last level, probably the most significant level in terms of how we can integrate all this information and really master information. And that context has to do with things like social determinants and disparities and the reality that these things have an effect on how we evaluate and manage patients and the success with which patients can be managed. And so, I appreciate that question, I think it’s a great question, because it gets that kind of the reality of what does this look like in real life as opposed to just on the page or just in a textbook. Dr Grouse: Well, that's really helpful and certainly something that we can all keep in mind as we try to be more aware of this, and I like the idea of just acknowledging it and just having it there, knowing that this exists and helping that inform how we approach these patients. I wanted to ask you, what do you think the biggest controversy is currently in the evaluation and management of spine pain? Dr Williams: You know, I think that there's a couple of controversies that are interesting. Nowadays, one of them has to do with the utility of some of the things that have been performed and done most frequently for spine pain, and that's things like epidural injections, facet injections, some of the interventional procedures. There's some controversy among some as to whether or not these things are effective, you know, what role they have in treatment because some people will say, oh, is there any long-term effect from these kinds of procedures? Even patients will sometimes say, hey, listen, I'm not sure if I want an injection because isn't that just temporary, or, isn't that just a band aid? But I think that when we talk about pain from the perspective of it potentially being a progressive disorder and trying to be aggressive with managing pain so that we are less likely to see some of the chronic manifestations that occur with maladaptive neuroplasticity it's important to be aggressive with stopping no subceptive signals, reducing an individual 's experience of pain, optimizing their function, and having a positive effect on the ability to treat and eliminate pain, even if that means with epidural injections or blocks or what have you, as long as they're safe and effective. I think that there are some controversies evolving related to some of the regenerative procedures that have been done for other kinds of musculoskeletal pain. So, for instance, PRP and stem cells, you know, people have been doing those for knees and muscle tears and what have you. And of course, that technology has kind of evolved into potential approaches for spine pain. People are often interested in whether PRP or stem cells may help their spine pain. And so, I think that's another area of potential controversy because there hasn't been a ton of, you know, high-level evidence, although there are some, you know, there's some studies out there and there's some evidence that they may be of benefit. And I think the role of stimulators and implants for axial pain is another area of potential controversy. Those are probably the biggest things in this area of spine pain that are topics of controversy. There are things that have people talked about for years in terms of chiropractic care versus traditional medical care. But I think right now it's the utility of these kinds of interventional procedures, the role of regenerative procedures and injections, and then the role of more aggressive interventions like permanent implantation of stimulators and that kind. Dr Grouse: Is there anything coming on the horizon in the field of managing spine pain that we should be looking out for? Dr Williams: Well, you know, I am still bullish on the concept of neuromodulation and we've talked about that peripheral nerve stimulation, spinal cord stimulation, and then other wearables, VR, so on and so forth. I think that those things will continue to evolve, and I think that technologies continue to evolve that are likely to help with spine related pain. Some of them are very interestingly related to the ability to strengthen multifidus muscles and improve muscular function in individuals with spine pain. But I think that's one area - neuromodulation - that we'll continue to see evolution. I think that- I'm interested to see what the role of regenerative injections and regenerative procedures may play. And then just like every other field of human endeavor, artificial intelligence, machine learning, those kinds of things are likely to have a significant effect on how we diagnose an individuals, on treatment options for various individuals, and even a predicting outcome from various treatment. So those, I think, are examples of areas that we'll see continued growth and evolution with respect to spine pain. Dr Grouse: Well, I'm very excited to see what comes down the pipeline and both vastly more to come, I'm sure. So, thank you so much, Vernon, for joining us. I really enjoyed reading your article. I really enjoyed talking about this topic. I think I've learned a lot and I hope that our listeners will take the time to read this article. It's really, really helpful. Dr Williams: Well, I appreciate the opportunity. I really enjoy participating in this process. The interview was fun, so thanks a lot for having me. I really appreciate it. Dr Grouse: Again, today I've been interviewing Dr Vernon Williams, whose article on spine pain appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on pain management in neurology. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining today. Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, associate editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at Continnpub.com/AudioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.