Optimism vs. hope, with Rutger Bregman

Rutger Bregman is a Dutch historian with a radical new idea: what if human beings are not innately savage and selfish, but compassionate and kind? I talk to Rutger about his uplifting new book, Humankind; the difference between optimism and hope; and why we need to look beyond cultural myth to find the truth. I felt comforted and hopeful after speaking to Rutger - I hope you do, too.   How Do We Know We're Doing It Right is out now in both  hardback and audiobook, narrated by Pandora.