Fit for Work w/ Dr Delia Roberts

Now more than ever, worker health is a key part to any successful business. Beyond the obvious connection to lost work time, healthy workers tend to be happier, produce more, and can be safer on the job. When a worker is out sick, it leaves the workforce short.  In order to address the problem, you must look at it from both ends. What happens when an employee gets ill and how employers help employees to stay healthy and not get sick in the first place.  On this episode, Dr. Delia Roberts, President of Fit Safe Solutions, digs into the impact of an employer health and wellness program and unpack its 4 key tenants. Relevant, Committed, Effective, and On-Going. Peter Koch: Hello, listeners, and welcome to the MEMIC Safety Experts Podcast. Now, more than ever, worker health is a key part to any successful business. Beyond the obvious connection to lost work time, healthy workers tend to be happier, produce more and can be safer on the job. There have been numerous articles and studies done on how companies manage employees who are ill. And I'm not talking about an illness that's related to or caused by work. That's an entirely different podcast. I'm talking about a cold or the flu or a migraine or the effects of diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, stress, anxiety and even depression. Much of the news these days focuses on paid sick leave as a benefit to help people who are sick to stay home. This is an important part of the puzzle and it can help the worker to manage their illness, but it still leaves the workforce lacking, regardless of what equation you use to measure success. Employees are still a part of it. When you're short on staff, it throws the whole [00:01:00] equation out of balance. Successful businesses need workers and those workers need successful businesses. In order to address the problem. You've got to look at it from both ends. What happens when an employee gets ill? Do they have health care or sick leave, etc.? And this is a big and. How do employers help employees to stay healthy and not get sick in the first place? This is more than health insurance and a gym membership. It requires buy in commitment and accountability, but it can pay big dividends if it's done right. I'm your host, Peter Koch. And on the phone with me today is Dr. Delia Roberts, president of Fit Save Solutions and now retired professor at Selkirk College in British Columbia, Canada. We're going to dig into the impact that employer health and wellness programs have on the worker and the success of a business. Welcome to the podcast, Delia. Dr. Delia Roberts: Thank you, Peter. It's a pleasure to be here. Peter Koch: Thanks. It's really great to have you on the line today. We've [00:02:00] known each other for a while. I got to know you and your work initially through reading the research that you published regarding the replanters out in British Columbia and the resort workers in North America. And it actually moved me to take a class through Selkirk College that you had ran, which addressed employee productivity and safety through looking at data, biology, physiology and psychology. And then after that, knowing you a little bit more, I got to assist you in implementing the Fit for Snow program here in the east, for different resorts and kind of thinking about that the last time we talked. This is the 10th anniversary of Fit for Snow. This year is and it's been around for 10 years. Dr. Delia Roberts: Yes, that's correct. We did a two year study that started in 2010, so the implementation phase is actually the following year that we started 10 years ago. Peter Koch: Wow. That's pretty amazing. And it's really that program in particular has [00:03:00] grown. And has it affected a number of resorts here in the east. And I know quite a few more out in the west. We'll talk a little bit more about that. What I found in your research, in your programs and the class, too. What stood out is how you correlated the relationship of work culture and employee health to performance results, such as like increased productivity and decreased injuries. So what I'd like you to do, if you can, is tell me a little bit about how you got started doing that research and how it evolved to what it is now, because you didn't start with the resource. You started with some other industries. Dr. Delia Roberts: Yes, that's correct, Peter. And it's kind of a fun story, because when I first started this, the idea of worksite health and wellness or workplace physiology as part of safety was we didn't even exist. So I was a biochemist and I worked for about fifteen years with the Canadian Olympic teams. Again, [00:04:00] a very long time ago. So before the dawn of kinesiology and the man that I worked with was a very, very talented coach. So he had this inkling that there might be ways to truly monitor the adaptation to training and brought me on board as a biochemist to investigate that process. So it was a wonderful experience. And after I had my children, I moved to a more rural area in British Columbia to teach at a small college. But after a few years, I really miss the research aspect of it. And in my classes, I had quite a few tree planters and of course in British Columbia we have a lot of forests. And as they cut those forests down, the companies that do that are mandated by the government to reforest those areas. So they have a huge crew of young people generally who go out and [00:05:00] carry the trees up the side of the mountains and dig the holes and put the trees in the ground and then close the holes over. So the physiological load there is truly extreme. And these individuals who are in my classes retraining because it's just such hard work that they can't sustain it for very many years, started to talk to me about it. And I thought as a biochemists exercise physiologist, that it would be a very interesting work situation to evaluate and again the timing was good for me because at that time, literally one in five planters would suffer an injury that would knock them off work. So the forestry companies were interested in having a look at something that could help them reduce their worker's comp costs. So that's how it all started. And as [00:06:00] a sports scientist, it was important to me to measure what the workload actually was. So that was sort of the biochemistry physiology piece. And the planters are a rather unique culture. They work very hard and they live under quite strenuous conditions. So it immediately became apparent that if I was going to convince these individuals to look after their physiology, I needed to understand what motivated them. What kinds of things would speak to them from inside their cultures. And the other advantageous, peace. From my perspective was that the planters are paid by per piece, so they get so many cents per tree that they put in the ground. And that made it very, very easy to measure the outcome on productivity. So the [00:07:00] model that I have used ever since that time was to spend one year or one season monitoring, evaluating the workload, looking at the physiology, describing the type of person who would be employed in that area and the deficit. So the weaknesses in their physiology, where are they strong? Were they not strong? And then the following year, I was able to get enough funding to take three groups, control group and two test treatments and train them or apply those treatments prior to this season beginning. And then monitor them to their season. So we had very clear measurements then of what would happen if you had groups. Which one either prepared physically or the other big piece with nutrition hydration component. And [00:08:00] look at the outcome both in terms of the productivity or the number of trees they put in the ground. And then also the changes in those individual bodies in terms of injuries, but also more subtle measurements. For example, what was going on with their immune system or their ability to manage certain physical tasks appropriately? Peter Koch: Sure. So that combines a lot. You spent some, quite a bit of time trying to identify what the problem is and then try to really address those organically from the ground up by introducing different solutions for them. But I think you hit the nail on the head, too, by saying that you really had to convince them that this is the way to go, do it to make some  changes and you're able to show some success. So I would imagine that afterwards, after they saw the success of their peers, the difference in what happened or what was going on the previous year to the success [00:09:00] of the current year, that they were able to see that success and want to be on board more. Dr. Delia Roberts: Absolutely. So from the company's perspective, we were able to look at the number of recordable incidents in the different groups. And the nice piece about having a control group is that you have similar size, fitness, gender background, etc., people who are working under the same conditions and without the treatment. So, you know that the changes that you made are effective or not effective compared to no change. And what we saw right off the bat was a significant reduction in injuries. But interestingly, a huge gain in performance, because when you give people the fuel that they need to keep working hard. And also the physical capacity to complete that work, then [00:10:00] you have an advantage over an individual who doesn't have those tools out there. Peter Koch: Yeah. Their disposal. So, again, that's another interesting part, because many times when we start to look at a problem of, say, lower production or increased injuries, we tend to look at it as what kind of personal protective equipment or what sort of extrinsic solution can we provide, whether it might be a different tool or something, something else to help protect the employee from the hazard that's there. And in this case, you couldn't eliminate the hazard because they had to plant the trees. They were continually exposed to the level of physical activity in the environment they were in. There wasn't a whole lot that could be done to change that. So you addressed it through more of a wellness program. Would that be an appropriate frame for that? Dr. Delia Roberts: Yes, absolutely. [00:11:00] So there are many, many occupations where people have to perform movements which are not ergonomically advantageous. So we can redesign the tool and shift the load. You can put a barrier in place to say, oh, the person can't go past this barrier. That would protect them from, let's say, some kind of mechanical injury. And you can ask them not to indulge in certain behaviors that might also increase the risk of illness or injury. But these are all external factors. And unfortunately, in the way of this world, often when you tell people they are not supposed to do something, it almost makes some effort to do that. Yeah. So there's that independent piece. But there's also the piece of people who have been doing it that way for many years find it difficult to change those habits. [00:12:00] So there's lots of reasons why those external pieces can reduce the risk to a certain amount. But they can't take it away. So when you give someone an intrinsic tool, what happens is that it combines together with their own personal perspective the way they approach things. And then it's in place 24/7. So it's not just there when the supervisors watching. It's not just there in the barriers in place or where it's convenient for someone to do something a certain way. It's there all the time when their mind is distracted by other things and so these intrinsic pieces which become part of a person's approach to doing anything. Protect them every day at work, all day. But it also protects them outside of work. So in terms of the decisions they're making about the other activities that [00:13:00] they engage in. Peter Koch: So describe a little bit more about what would be an intrinsic tool that you would help the workers understand or get a hold of? Dr. Delia Roberts: Absolutely. So the programs that I do usually take a two pronged approach. And one, as I mentioned, is looking at nutrition and hydration. So body needs fuel in order to perform physical work, but it also needs fuel to perform mental work. So the way our brain makes decisions is very much influenced by our physiological status. So when a person is in the workplace, whether it's a question of am I going to power this machine down before I reach in and pull that whatever it is out of the way? That decision can be influenced. Extrinsically by there's a barrier in place to prevent [00:14:00] you from putting your arm through that hole. But that barrier can be removed in many situations. So the intrinsic piece would be giving the person the ability to assess that risk appropriately, to see that it's not a case of, oh, if I turn the machine off, I am going to lose time and then I'll have to power down. I'll have to start it up. It's almost the end of my shift. I want to go home on time, etc., etc. Versus looking at it and saying the risk of me sticking my arm inside that home means that I'm going to maim my arm. And that's probably not a good decision. Therefore, I'll power it down. So the intrinsic pieces that the person understands the consequence of that and is able to correctly evaluate whether or not it really is a good decision to bypass the safety barrier and engage [00:15:00] in that behavior. Peter Koch: And you were able to correlate some of that with the person's well, their mindfulness, their physical ability to make decisions. So, you know, how turned on they are that day or that shift and that comes quite a bit from, well, not just the amount of sleep that they get at night, which is a cultural thing, but really the food and fuel, like you mentioned before. So part of that intrinsic tool has to be education, as well as talking about how food and fuel it would affect you, but also having some opportunity to get access to that good fuel as well. And hydration as well. Dr. Delia Roberts: Yes, absolutely. So what happened was because I was interested in fuel for the tree planters, primarily because the workload is so high, I was looking at availability of that fuel in the blood. And what became [00:16:00] apparent pretty quickly was that when blood sugar is very low, people's reaction time and their ability to perform complex movements was impaired. And this is a physiological phenomena that's very well understood. We often talk about getting the hangry. So we well understand at least. And if we can't recognize it in ourselves, we see it in our partners or children that when they're hungry, when they haven't eaten or drunk any fluid in a long time, their behavior starts to pull off. So mood is affected. And the way we perceive our environment is affected. So with the tree planting group, that wasn't my main point, but it did drive home for me that fuel can also affect other things. And the group that I worked with immediately after the tree [00:17:00] planters was a group where decision making has very high consequences. So this was a group of mountain guides who work in British Columbia again, helping people travel through the mountains without getting hurt or being able to go and enjoy the snow, for example, heli skiing and avoid avalanches or terrain that could cause injury. So there's quite a bit of crossover between workers in those two groups. And so that group of people saw the progress from the tree planting perspectives and said, hey, we think this might be something that can help us. So when I started looking at that group linked between the availability of food and water, also brought in another parameter, which is that in many cases, groups which have time constraints on their activities or [00:18:00] believe that it's unprofessional to eat and drink in front of a client base may self limit. So even though there's water available, for example, to a physician in the hospital, they may feel that it's not appropriate for a patient to see them eat or drink. And what ends up happening then is that if that food is available, people may not partake of it. And the decisions that those people are making, the physician in surgery, for example, have very big consequences. So when we started investigating that more clearly, what we saw was the piece around decision making and that it's not just having a low blood sugar, but rather the normal pattern of eating in North America where we eat something sweet. It drives blood sugar up very quickly. We then release the hormone [00:19:00] insulin that pulls that sugar out of the blood. Blood sugars fall. And then we get this cycle of fatigue, confusion, maybe loss of reaction time. And so the person eats something sweet and drives it up again. So it's the variability in that curve going up and down which causes the problem. And when you look at different groups in industry, the access to food sometimes drives that. So a worker who's working on a production line only gets to eat at their break. So how many break do they have during the day in terms of providing that nutrition they need then end up eating larger meals with a lot of sugar that drives the blood sugar up. Two hours later, they have a crash in their blood sugar falling quite low. And yet they may not have access to food [00:20:00] during that time. So that can impact the way they approach their work, but also their physical capacity. So then they start slowing down. They start making more mistakes and it affects the productivity as well. Peter Koch: Yes. So affected the productivity and the quality in those pieces. Dr. Delia Roberts: Absolutely. Peter Koch: For sure. And you made a good connection there. Like, it's not just those physical jobs, like the tree planters or the critical decisions of your health care workers, your doctors, nurses or your mountain guides, but your production worker, the driver who is going to be out there driving for a package delivery service, or gees even the person who might be working at the convenience store that might be in a busy place and can't eat from a hygienic standpoint. I mean, the ability to make good decisions for guest service, for productivity, to manage safety things gets impacted. And you brought up the hangry, [00:21:00] which I like that term, because I think everyone has had experience with that before. But if you if you look at the hangry is not just from your attitude, but if you think about how when you're in that position and you are hungry and you might not feel hungry, but your attitude is changing, you're not making the same decisions that you would be if your blood sugar was stable at the moment or at a place where you had the fuel in order to make the good decisions. You're focused on different things. You're being irritated by things that you would normally be able to manage. And those big differences in lock out tag out decisions in following procedural decisions in when you're going to take a break or even fallen back to maybe old physical habits that you've had training to manage from an ergonomic perspective. That's a huge [00:22:00] connection there for workers and for employers to see that there is a huge benefit to make sure that employees understand their physiology as they are for work. Like, how does how does their work and how does their food and fuel consumption fit their work balance or their shift balance? Dr. Delia Roberts: Absolutely. So that kind of pulls us back to the cultural piece, because you can tell someone that that's the case. But if it's not something that fits into their perspective or their frame of reference and has value to them as individuals. And that change is going to take place. So, for example, in working with a group of long haul truck drivers, you can talk to them about the fact that the incidence of diabetes, obesity in a group like that is almost [00:23:00] 50 percent, even though the average age is only about 35. So it's huge health risks there in terms of heart disease and also diabetes. But no one believes it's actually going to happen to them. And yet if you give that individual the opportunity to see how it plays out in something that's relative to them. So, for example, being able to actually measure the change in their ability to respond to an unexpected visual stimulus. So this is a slow car pulling out onto the highway in front of them, an animal jumping out onto the highway. A patch of ice coming into a corner or an obstruction on the road. How long does it take that individual to move their foot from the gas to the brake? So we can measure that.  [00:24:00]Or we can model it by giving them a little test that they do. So they actually stop driving, pull over to the side of the road in a safe place, stop driving. And then they have a 10 minute test that they run on a handheld device where a light flashes on the screen and they have to tap a button or a light flashes on a screen. If it's red before green, they hit one button. But if it's yellow before green, they hit a different button. So they have to see it, interpret the information and make a decision which actually models real life much better. So we can show them that there's roughly a third of a second delay in their ability to respond when their blood sugar is fluctuating. So that doesn't sound like very much time, though, when a fully loaded big truck is driving down the road. That translates into about 40 [00:25:00] feet of stopping distance at 50, 50 miles an hour. So it's huge and it's going to make the difference between life or death. Peter Koch: Yeah, that's a really that's a great example of how to connect the results into the culture of these, to get people to understand that they need to be able to make a change. And you're describing one of the measurement tools you used with the truck driving program that you or the truckers that you've worked with, too. So this isn't, you didn't just make up that example. You actually used that in it. Was it fit for driving or fit for trucking? Dr. Delia Roberts: Yes, that's correct. So there was a big study that we did with long haul drivers and looking at the impact of the nutrition and hydration on those individuals. So most of the programs [00:26:00] sort of have this fit to work sort of theme to them. So there was fit to plant for the tree planters and for snow for the ski instructors to drive for the drivers. And then I also have one that runs in the forestry industry. Peter Koch: That's fantastic. All fairly physical. And you might not think that the long haul truckers are physical. But I would challenge anyone to get in to the seat of a truck driver and spend the amount of time that they do there. It's a very, it's a physical job in another way. It challenges your body in very different ways than, say, your planters or your loggers might. But it still is very physically challenging. Dr. Delia Roberts: Yes, that's correct. And just some mental load on having to really concentrate for that period of time. They work very long hours and they [00:27:00] often have to do maintenance on their trucks afterwards. So a very high fatigue in that group. Peter Koch: Yeah, for sure. And what was their response for each of those groups that you work with when you were able to show them their deficit and reaction time with their blood sugar was fluctuating. What was their reaction? Dr. Delia Roberts: Right. So those drivers are professionals and they fully understand that consequence in terms of the risk of having an incident on the road. And again, it kind of brings forward a theme that I see. Every single group that I work with. So, for example, physician, Physicians fully understand the impact on health, of that fluctuation in blood sugar. Or let's say not consuming fluid. And yet the dissonance [00:28:00] between their behavior and their own health is huge. But you have to tie it to something that's relevant to that individual. So for the truck drivers, that difference in reaction time is going to determine whether or not, for example, they kill a family that's driving on the highway because those trucks are so big that whatever it is that they connect with, it is going to be severely damaged. And the same for a physician, they're not going to pay attention to their own health. But when you tell them that looking after their own health helps them practice better medicine, then they are completely on board. So that's a cultural piece of finding what it is that motivates an individuals. So let's say you have an 18 year old who's working at a ski resort for one season and they've come to that resort to have a good time [00:29:00] and see as much as they can and engage in meeting a bunch of other people and having a lot of fun. So that 18 year old is not going to understand how sleep loss will impact their risk of injury on the mountain. So you have to find something that motivates them. What can make them pay attention to these recommendations that will also keep them safe? And that piece can be a big challenge. Peter Koch: Yeah, it's that's a huge challenge. And it's different for not only every industry, but it's even different within the age groups to get them to not only see that there's a problem or identify that there's a problem, but the problem actually can affect them, like you said with the truckers and with the doctors. And I think more challenging, you know, when the decisions might not be as life changing as, say, it could be with a long haul trucker or with a doctor [00:30:00] or a nurse, but it could be career ending or at least season ending for ski patrol or a ski school person or a factory worker that makes a decision or a slow decision or the wrong decision for machine guarding or lockout and puts their hand or fingers someplace where it shouldn't be. And now all of a sudden, they lose the use of that or they lose it altogether, or the outdoor professional that blows out their ACL or has a significant back or head injury and now are unable to participate for the rest of the season or for the rest of their career, depending on their age. The significance of the injury? Dr. Delia Roberts: Absolutely. And no one ever believes that's going to happen to them. Peter Koch: Very true. Very, very true. And that's a barrier that you can't get through. But you can do a lot with education and using those real world examples and try to try and really to show [00:31:00] that the data between this is reaction time when your blood sugar is fluctuating and this is reaction time when your blood sugar is stable and see that. What are the consequences? Ask the questions. Try to get them to try to determine what the consequences might be if they're not choosing diet that would help stabilize blood sugar. Let me ask you, how much of a change did you have to make with these groups? From a nutritional standpoint to stabilize blood sugar? Was it an enormous change, like a life changing thing, or was it just a few things that they were able to modify on a regular basis to stabilize blood sugar? Dr. Delia Roberts: The changes are dependent on where that group starts from. So, again, depending on where you're working, you may have to take quite a different approach in some cases. You have a group who has had no education at [00:32:00] all in terms of nutrition, and they eat the foods which are either culturally presented to them or sometimes given economically. So, for example, working in a sawmill in southeastern United States, fast food is very inexpensive and yet to buy fresh fruits and vegetables, surprisingly, was very costly. So some of that was driven simply by an economic factors. in other situations you have a group which has, for whatever reason, picked up a certain approach to food. Which may be driven by something that's presented in the popular press and especially around nutrition. There are so many myths about what actually is healthy people can get very entrenched in that piece. So [00:33:00] all of the Fit to Work program focus on a basic diet that is rich in fruits and vegetables, unprocessed high fiber greens and fat, which are more tending towards the unsaturated fats as opposed to animal based saturated fats. So it's a very basic, healthful philosophy that follows the recommendations by the different scientific organizations that study diabetes, heart disease, mental diseases and so on. The basic nutritional pieces. And I think it also brings home that one of the really important pieces is evaluating where you're starting from because you can't implement change unless you know what it is that has to change. So in the sawmill's, for [00:34:00] example, being able to look at what foods are available on site and then transition a little bit away from having packages of potato chips and candy bars toward foods, which has the potential to be perishable. So creating problems within the organization in terms of supply and demand, but are important to make those changes because they make a big difference in terms of what is acceptable to people. So it's not a simple answer because it's a complicated question. And it also brings home that point that there's no one size fits all. So it's dependent on the situation and where the people are starting from, what they have access to and what kinds of changes are going to be acceptable. Because if you go in and you simply say you can't have any of those foods that you enjoy or culturally [00:35:00] important your not going to make inroads at all people will just shut down. Peter Koch: That's a really great question. And when you were talking about culturally acceptable changes, I was thinking about my experience actually over in France a year or so ago and fresh, fresh bread everywhere. And could you imagine going into a particular company and talking about a diet that doesn't include bread? It just it wouldn't work. It just would not. People would not accept it, no matter if that was the best thing for them. They just wouldn't be able to do it because it's so culturally ingrained. And then the access, like some companies, if you wanting to start a health and wellness program. And part of that is information on diet and nutrition. Looking around at not just what you have available in your workplace, like [00:36:00] your vending machines, and if you have access to an employee cafeteria or a break room, what's available there? But if people go outside for their lunch break. What do they have access that's close. So if they have 45 minutes or a half an hour for lunch, What’s within walking distance.? Is it going to be the fast food pizza this? So you need to look where people are accessing their food when they're at work and they might be bringing it with them. So how do you help them make a good meal at home to bring with them at for their lunch break as well or where any of their breaks? So that identification of your cultural and your access to food it's a really key part. And I think that's where some of the health and wellness falls apart, you can provide some information education. But it only goes so far if the employee doesn't feel they have access or the ability to make the change because of expense or culture [00:37:00] reasons. Dr. Delia Roberts: So there are some specific incidences that I can share with you that we can come back to. But I would like to sort of capture this by saying that when you look at the health and wellness studies and now there's a huge body of science where there have been thousands of groups that have looked at implementing health and wellness programs and what works and what doesn't work. And when you look at them, there's a huge range of outcomes. So some of them fall flat on their faces and organizations have spent a lot of money and had no positive outcome. And in other cases you see very, very positive gains. So the return on investment can be as high as six to one because of lowered injury costs, lowered health care costs [00:38:00] and improve productivity. So these studies, which pool all of this information together and dissect what really makes a difference in terms of having a successful program. Come back again and again to four key points. And the first point is that the program has to be relevant. So it has to solve the problem that that particular group has. And I would emphasize again, and unless you know what the problem is, you can't provide people with a solution that's going to address their problem. The second point is that the organization has to be behind the program. So, as you said, you can't just offer a health and wellness program. Here's an address to something online or here's a pamphlet that you can use and information because that only is in  [00:39:00]the field of view for a few seconds. You have to stick with it. And management has to find a way to make it important to the people who are engaged in the program. So that's incentive for the workers, but accountability for the supervisors at all levels. You don't just hand it to one person on top of everything else that's on their desk. You actually have to invest in giving people the tools that they need to make it happen. The third piece is that you have to have effective communication and you have to expose your workers to it again and again and again. So not a one time thing, but rather you have to remind them all the time that this is important. And anyone who's ever tried to change behavior can understand where that point is coming from. And the final element [00:40:00] is that it needs to be ongoing. So there has to be support going into the program, evaluating what's working and what's not working, and then changing and re introducing or modifying and bringing new tools to the forefront. You have to keep on making it relevant as things change because the problem won't be a few years from now as it is now. So in my own personal experience with roughly 15 different programs that I've investigated to date, it seems to take about four years of repeat exposure before you really make that information intrinsic. And on the fourth year, all of a sudden, it's not this external program, but it's our program. It's what we do here at this site this [00:41:00] resort in this location. And the 10 year anniversary is interesting because this is the third program where on the tenth year we had a zero recordable incident year. So that's a pretty amazing place to get to for examples for tree planting when you think that it was a 20 percent injury rate to start. Peter Koch: Yeah, that's huge. Wow. Dr. Delia Roberts: But it does take 10 years to get there. And I, I don't think that there are very many organizations that realize, though, when they implement a health and wellness program, that they're looking at a minimum of four years to truly be committed before they're really getting to see that turnaround. Peter Koch: Yeah, I think you're right with that, with the companies that I work with specifically. And I think culturally, when we start to look at [00:42:00] the just the business culture in North America for sure, where it's not so much a program de jure, but we're going to try it if it doesn't seem to work within a short period of time. We're going to move on to something else that we think is going to work better. Instead of trying to look at like what you said, identify the problem, find a program that is going to respond to the problem and then stick with it for a long enough time to see the results. Because those four points that you made, the relevancy, the buy in of the organization, that's effective and pervasive communication to establish and continue behavioral change. And then it needs to be ongoing and not only evaluation. Those are all key parts to anything. But what we look at here with the wellness program, it's a long term cycle instead of maybe just a year cycle or a two [00:43:00] year cycle. Four years is a long time to put your money where your mouth is. But like you said it, six to one return potentially is enormous. Dr. Delia Roberts: It is when it's done right. The payback is huge. Absolutely. Peter Koch: So in your experience, where do you see the companies have the biggest challenge when they've identified the right or maybe they haven't identified the right problem, but they're looking to start an employee wellness program because they want to address some issues within their company on the employee side, where do they make the biggest mistakes or the most frequent mistake out of those four things that they don't do? Dr. Delia Roberts: That's a great question. So to me, I think the biggest mistake is expecting an H.R. manager or a health and safety manager who is already fully occupied with [00:44:00] their existing job to run a health and wellness program. You can't do it because in order to do it properly. You have to engage in those activities on a daily basis. And you have to be involved with the supervisors at every level for them to have the resources to be able to make those changes. So that to me would be the answer there, that not having enough dedicated resources within the organization to make it happen. So my group can come on site periodically, but we can't be there every day. And the kinds of changes that need to be made, need to be made all the time. The message isn't something that is applied in specific circumstances on specific days. The message that you're trying [00:45:00] to send is that this culture of safety runs 24/7. And so you have to have the resources to be able to do that. Peter Koch: That's great insight. And as you're talking, I'm thinking about, again, my experience with the clients that I work with. And I could bring up an idea and we'll talk about the implementation of the idea. And I'll explain that you have to have the resources behind it. And what they hear is I have to give this to my H.R. person or my safety person, and they'll be able to make it happen. And it falls flat because the safety person, like you said, or the H.R. person, or it could even be the supervisor that gets tasked with implementing this on top of everything else, like they aren't given any extra time. They're just given additional responsibility. And they'll focus on it for a little while and they'll try it. They'll get a program in place and [00:46:00] it will look good, but it will fall flat because they can't get back to touch it. They'll give it to that next level supervisor or the employees and the employees. Look at it go, this is great, but I need help. And help doesn't come and it doesn't get reinforced and it falls flat. So what a great lesson, I think, for employers to hear that putting that health and wellness program in together. You need to have not only the financial resources to do it. And there's really ways to make it affordable. But you have to have the human resources to make it successful. Dr. Delia Roberts: Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that it's a question about training. So in any situation, in any organization, you need training time to make sure that the employee is able to do their job correctly and that training time pulls [00:47:00] away from production time. So there's always that balance between being able to provide enough training and cost to the organization and the time required to do that training. So unfortunately, you can have fairly large costs at the front end and then somehow expect that this hour in a classroom is going to have an impact on an employee six months later and it doesn't. Unfortunately, that training has to be ongoing and continuous. Peter Koch: Yeah, for sure on that. For sure. And like you said, your employers might see a fairly sizable chunk of financial commitment right up front and then it will all get wasted if you don't put the time and resources into it for the long term. So going back to that first point that you made in those four items that are required. The [00:48:00] program has to be relevant. It has to solve the problem that the group has. And sometimes you're trying to put resources into a problem that either doesn't exist or it's not the actual problem. It might be an effect or as a result of a problem someplace else. So you identify the problem and make sure that you have resources to put into it. And then you will see an effect. You know, we've both worked with some companies that have had significantly reduced injury costs and have seen increased productivity in the groups that they've put through programs like this or have incorporated a health and wellness program within their company. Dr. Delia Roberts: Yes. It's wonderful when you start to see those changes taking place. Peter Koch: Yeah, it really is. It truly is. And then you get to go back. And I think for you too, being able to go back a [00:49:00] number of years after one of these programs have existed with a company and get to see some of the progress that they're making and struggles at first, too. But some of the progress that they get to make and the successes that they have, that must be very rewarding for your perspective. Dr. Delia Roberts: It is Peter, and even more so, partly because where I live, it's a relatively small community, but this is actually happened to me elsewhere. So, for example, walking into a restaurant in Colorado and having the server say to me, I attended your training at a resort three years ago and it changed my life. And everything I do now is based on this ability to be healthy and stay fit and strong and make good decisions. And my family's health is better. So that's I think the other piece of it is that while [00:50:00] you touch people at work, you also reach their families. And when they leave that organization, they take those intrinsic changes with them. And that's probably the biggest joy for me is to be able to see that take place. Peter Koch: Yeah, that's fantastic. Oh, that that just must tickle your heart. Dr. Delia Roberts: It's pretty fun when it happens. Peter Koch: Yeah. Totally must. Just couple last questions here. What do you wish you had known when you started out? It's like you look back from where you are now to the programs that you started and some of the challenges that you had putting stuff together. What's one thing that you wish you would have known that you could have told an employer or an organization to help them be more successful? Dr. Delia Roberts: So I have a friend who works in sales and marketing, and he runs a consulting company where he goes into an organization and helps them analyze [00:51:00] where they should be targeting their sales initiative. So where are they making big sales that are very profitable? And when he works with an organization, he will not take a contract unless the organization commits to meet his training requirements. And on the multi year level, and if there was one thing that I could do differently, it would be to structure my programs along that model, because that's where it fails, is when an organization tries it for six months and puts no resources behind it whatsoever and then it fails and they walk away from it. And it saddens my heart that organizations are willing to put those kinds of resources into sales and not into productivity and injury prevention. Because [00:52:00] one of the really interesting exercises, and I'm sure you recall, Peter, during the course that we did together, was where I asked you to choose an injury, which is the most common in one of the groups that you work with. And then to cost that injury out and then the final step once you know what the total cost is. So not just the medical costs, but the costs to productivity and interruption of work in replacing the worker and so on, but also looking at what it would take from the organization perspective in terms of their profit margins. So once I know this injury actually costs ten thousand dollars or one hundred thousand dollars, now I need to know how many hamburgers do I have to sell to get the one hundred thousand dollars back. And it's truly shocking for an organization to see that amount. So you can say [00:53:00] if I could increase my sales by X percent, my profit would go up. And people seem to do that or to be willing to do that. What they don't realize is that, for example, a sawmill has to run 28 days to make back one shoulder injury or a ski resort has to sell 15000 lift tickets to meet back injury. And that's where the translation falls apart. So that was a long answer to a relatively short question. But what I would say is that if I had a way to do things differently, I would insist on a four year commitment upfront. And I do try to do that. But, of course, an organization will look at a contract and say, didn't do anything this year. I'm canceling in the second year of a four year contract [00:54:00] or the first year before your contract. Peter Koch: I think it's a great lesson, though, for anyone listening if they're thinking about health and wellness program. As part of their company is that it really needs to be there for the long term. It's not a one year wonder.  When they  look at the program, they should structure it such that they are going to, it's going to start at this time and we're going to re-evaluate at these times. But the success or failure isn't going to be six months, one year, two years, three years. But the success or failure identifier will be four years out because statistically, you've said that that's what it is. And I think that's a good lesson. Like, if you could have done that at the beginning and really worked that in maybe other companies would have found that model to be more successful for them or they wouldn't have struggled with it so much. So I think that's a great lesson  [00:55:00]for people to think about, because it's not a manufacturing process. It's not a I can push the button and I get 50000 widgets out of this piece of equipment. If I do it this way and I can do it in six months or I can do it in a week. Once it's installed, this is really it's what you're talking about here is culture change with commitments. And what you're getting from it is increased productivity, decreased injuries, increased quality of the product that you get to put out there. And at the end of the day, you get decreased absenteeism, which keeps your workforce stable. So you talk about blood sugar needed to be stable if you keep your workforce stable. I mean, the same thing happens when your workforce fluctuates, when you don't have enough, when it dips down to low. Just like the person trying to make a decision about the deer jumping out in front of them on the highway, they're not going to be able to react nimbly enough to avoid it. And if your workforce is too low and there's another shock to [00:56:00] your supply chain or there is a shock to or you get a big order, you know, success. You know, we have another million dollars of work coming in or I got a group that's coming to my resort. But if my workforce is too low, we can't respond well enough to have a qualitative product and the chances of us having injuries are even greater. So the results can really be beneficial. But you've got to got to stick with it for the long term. Like you said it was a long answer to a short question, but it wasn't an easy question. And I think you gave a really, a really well qualified answer for that, for people to take away from that, too. That's fantastic. So is there anything that anything that I didn't ask that I should have that something else you'd like to impart to the listeners here before we close? Dr. Delia Roberts: No, I think I think that pretty much covers it. I think the message is pretty clear that a worker [00:57:00] who is healthier, who is able to do their job in a positive light, is going to be a better worker no matter which perspective you look at it from. But it does require resources and support to help that worker stay healthy. Peter Koch: And the data backs it up. Like, if you can do these things, Dr. Delia Roberts: The data backs it up. Peter Koch: Data backs it up. You're right. Thanks again, Delia, for joining us. And to all of our listeners out there today, we've been speaking about workplace health and wellness and its impact on safety, quality and productivity with Dr. Julia Roberts, president of Fit Safe Solutions on the MEMIC Safety Experts Podcast. If you have any questions for Dr. Roberts or like to hear more about a particular topic on our podcast, e-mail me at [email protected]. Also, check out our show notes at MEMIC.com/podcast where you can find links to resources on workplace wellness, as well as our entire podcast archive. While you're there, sign [00:58:00] up for our Safety Net blog so you never miss any of our safety articles or news updates. And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you took a minute or two to review us on Stitcher I, iTunes or whichever podcast service that you found us on. And if you've already done that, well, thank you, because it really helps us spread the word. Please consider sharing this show with a business associate friend or family member who you think will get something out of it. And as always, thank you for the continued support. And until next time, this is Peter Koch reminding you that listening to the MEMIC's Safety Experts Podcast is good, but using what you learned is even better.