Office Ergonomics w/ Maureen Anderson

Office ergonomics is not just about your mouse or your keyboard or your chair.  It’s an integrated look at all the factors; human, environmental, and equipment, which affect how we work at a desk.  For the episode, Ergonomics in the Office, Peter speaks with Maureen Anderson, Certified Professional Ergonomist and Safety Management Consultant with MEMIC.  They talk posture, habits, gravity, focal distance, even lighting.  Maureen brings a wealth of experience to the table, as she discusses the long- and short-term effects of a poorly designed or set up workstation.  Have a great workstation, but still experience aches and pains after a long day in front of the keyboard?  They get into how a well-designed workstation isn’t the lone solution for reducing musculoskeletal injuries in the office.  What to know more about Office Ergonomics?  Check it out at the MEMIC Safety Experts Podcast.   Peter Koch: Hello, listeners, and welcome to the Safety Experts podcast. Does your back hurt by noon or the end of the day? Do you get headaches staring at the screen? Does that chair start to hurt you after a while? Peter Koch: Is the solution to standing workstation or maybe a different chair? Peter Koch: Well, I can tell you if the answer is yes to the first three of those questions, then the answer to the last is no. And today we're going to dig deep into the topic of ergonomics in the office. The Safety Experts podcast is presented by MEMIC, a leading worker's compensation provider based on the East Coast. A new episode of the podcast drops every two weeks featuring interviews with leaders in the field. Top executives MEMIC staff and other industry experts discussing how safety applies to all aspects of our lives. I'm your host, Peter Koch. And for the past 17 years, I've been working for MEMIC as a safety expert within the hospitality and construction industries. What I realized over that time is that safety impacts every part of each position you have or tasks that you do. So, bear with me. I need to exorcise a demon here. So, who would have figured that simply working at a desk would be so bad for you? We've even talked about the hazards of sitting in a previous episode up your need with Al Brown, so check that out on MEMIC.com/podcast. But what the heck happened to us? Sitting down used to be a break, a relief, a reward at the end of the day. But now for many workers, it's a possible vector for musculoskeletal disorders. Get up, drive to work, sit at work, sit at lunch, drive home, sit down, watch TV. A pain in the back, pain in the neck, down the leg, in the wrist that leads to poor sleep, contributes to poor posture, and the cycle just continues. It's not so much the sitting as how much we do it and how we sit and how our workstation is setup. So, on today's episode, the ergonomics in the office episode, I'm speaking with Maureen Anderson, a safety consultant with MEMIC, to better understand what ergonomics is and how it impacts our business. So, Maureen is a certified professional ergonomist and has been helping businesses get a handle on the workplace risk factors for more than 20 years. So, Maureen, welcome to the podcast. Maureen Anderson: Thank you. Peter, it's an honor to be here. Peter Koch: That's awesome. So, we're gonna jump right into it. So, what does it mean to be an Ergonomist? Maureen Anderson: OK, an ergonomist is not a doctor. It's not a physical therapist. When I go out, I am looking at the environment, the environment the person is working. And what I'm trying to do is trying to match that environment to a person and to see what I can change in the environment to optimize the work of the person. So, when I go in someone says, you know, I have carpal tunnel or something like that, I can't fix their wrist. I'm not a doctor, but I can try to see what I can do in that environment to either prevent them from worsening the condition or allowing them to have time to heal. But I do not physically fix them like a doctor would, I can't prescribe, I can't do that. I am all about the environment. Peter Koch: Ok, so really, when we look at your certification as an ergonomist and then looking at ergonomics being that study of the person's efficiency within the work environment, and how to fit work to the person. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: What are some of those short-term effects that you see of a poorly designed or poorly fit workstation? So, what are the short-term effects? Maureen Anderson: Oh, my goodness. Where do you start? So, when I said I'm just looking at the environment, I'm looking at sort of the match between the person and the environment and how the person interacts with the environment. So, when the environment does not fit a person, a person will often adapt what we call awkward postures. Right. They are not working in an optimum way. They're slouching. They're leaning. They're compressing, pressing onto things. So, in the short term, what I'll generally see are aches and pains. Right. That's your body telling you that something is not right. It is a way that your body is complaining to you. And when the problems start to rise, the complaints start out pretty polite. You know, a little bit of discomfort, you know, maybe you're just move your shoulders a little bit. But if you ignore those messages over time, those complaints, those cries for help are going to get louder and louder until you end up with pain. Pain is that scream from the body that you need to do something, and you need to do it quick. Peter Koch: So that the stiffness that you might feel after sitting at the workstation for a little while, your shoulders get little stiff, your eyes might get a little tired, your wrists get a little sore. That's the short-term effect. Maureen Anderson: That is the short term. And that's the easiest time to do something either. I don't know if I'm jumping off topic, but, you know, stiffness, if you just get up and move a little bit and get the blood flowing, that's going to help that. OK, that's going to get the blood flowing and really help you, but if you then go right back to a poorly designed situation, those symptoms are probably going to come back. So, if you can fix the environment at the same time, the person listens to your body. You're going to get a much better result, a much better fit. Peter Koch: Ok. So in that poorly designed workstation, when you have someone who is adapting to that poorly designed workstation and you're looking at the person and you're looking at the environment, what are some of those risk factors that you might be looking for that are going to show up with that complaint later on? Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: The cause of the stiffness possibly. Maureen Anderson: Probably the first is awkward postures. So, we start out with what is good posture and we usually talk about the neutral posture and that is standing. The ears are in line with the shoulders so that your head is supported. There's no bends in the wrist. OK. So, anything that is away from that becomes an awkward posture. Coupled with that is what our static postures. So even if you had perfect posture and you were standing up and that sort of military upright posture, you know, absolutely wonderful posture, if you do that for a long period of time, that becomes a problem because human beings have evolved to be dynamic, to move. We do not handle being in one position all the time. No changes. So those are probably the two dominant ones, awkward postures and static postures in the office environment. Peter Koch: Ok. That’s good. So, let's think about neutral posture for a minute, and so take me through how you would put somebody into neutral posture. So, if I'm at the workstation and you describe some of those parts, but what do you do first to get into it, to get to feel what neutral posture would be? Maureen Anderson: Ok. So right now, you're talking about. If I go and do an office evaluation. Peter Koch: Well just right now, so let's talk me through. Maureen Anderson: OK. So right now, you would be a closer to a neutral posture than I am because number one, I'm seated. OK. So, seated takes you out of the neutral posture. You lose some curve in your back. That puts a little more pressure on your back. So, a neutral posture would be standing posture. OK. As I said, the very important to have the ears in line with the shoulders, the head upright. OK. In a neutral posture, your arms are by your side. Your palms are facing inward, OK. Or a slight turn, about a quarter turn to the back. Often when someone is seated at a desk, they're seated. So, we have the back issue and then we put a bend in their arms and then we also twist them. Right. Peter Koch: Palms down instead of palms... Maureen Anderson: Yeah, pronate them. Right. We put them pronated. So, we've got a whole bunch of issues going and we talk about the angles and dangles. So now all the muscles, the tendons are all pulling at different angles and that greatly changes the force requirements for doing work. Peter Koch: Oh sure. So, in a neutral posture, we're supporting more of our body weights through our skeletal system than relying on our muscular system. Which will tire over time. Maureen Anderson: Right. We are allowing gravity to do its work on our skeleton, our skeletal system. Right. Peter Koch: Very good. So, in a neutral posture than just thinking about it, if we can kind of take our listeners through this. So, from a standing posture, stand up tall, chin forward, try to keep your fingers and shoulders in line and then shoulders and hips and in line. Maureen Anderson: Yes. So, we do spend some time talking about the neutral posture. But I have not met anyone who works in the neutral posture at this point. Right. Peter Koch: It's hard to stay there. And I think part of that feeling, if you could get into neutral postures and even if you're seated listening to this in the car at the dinner table. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: Just try to stay in that neutral posture for a while. It can't be tiring. Maureen Anderson: It's tiring. It is very tiring. And there's things like locking your knees. A lot of experts on say don't lock your knees. But if you ever tried to stand for a long time and not lock your knees? It's exhausting. You wouldn't do it. Everyone locks their knees when they're on their feet for a long period of time. But as I said, no one works in a neutral posture. There's not a lot of call in this world for well-paid jobs, for people just to stand up straight all day. I wish there was. But most people have to perform tasks at work and perform work. And that's OK, because we deal with change really well. So, moving doing tasks like that is great. But the modern office environment, we've done so much now to get people sitting in front of a computer and not moving. And that's where the problem comes up. Peter Koch: So that's the key piece. That's not just awkward or being in neutral posture. And it's not just being an awkward posture, but it's. Maureen Anderson: It's the static statics are a problem combined with the awkward posture. I'd rather see someone sitting at their desk, slouching, crossing our legs, fidgeting, leaning on one elbow, but moving rather than the perfect, rigid, upright person, 90-degree angles like you see all the pictures. Someone doing like this and sitting there all day never moving. I'd bet they would probably have more aches and pains than my fidgeter. Peter Koch: I could see that happening. So, the risk factors that we're looking for in office ergonomics initially are the largest ones for contributors would be static postures or static awkward posture. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: Would be... Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: ...the challenges, but then you also have force and pressure. Maureen Anderson:  Yes. My asking people like leaning on hard edges and compressing, cutting off blood flow, potentially compressing nerves. Usually it's leaning on the hard edge of a desk. We see it sometimes in drivers with leaning elbows onto windows, you know, doing this for a long period of time. Backs of a chair that are digging into the back of a knee and potentially cutting off circulation. So that compression would be another risk factor that would cause problems. Temperature, cold temperatures hinder blood supply. So, people working in very cold environments on Hinds will have issues. Not so much in hot environment, it's more the risk of dehydration, but from an ergonomic perspective, we see more problems probably in the cold. Not usually a problem in most offices, though I will tell you when I go into an office, probably that is one of the most common complaints I hear is the temperature of an office. I'll have two people sitting, you know, cubicles or desk next to each other. And one person is telling me it is frying hot in here and they are sweating all day. And the other person is telling me it is so cold. Their fingers are going numb. They can't feel their fingers. It's so cold. So, temperature is one of those risk factors. That interplay is with a whole bunch of other factors. Peter Koch: Sure. Because it changes circulation, which causes issues with static postures, and then on and on. How about lighting in the office? Can that be an issue? Maureen Anderson: That's also another common complaint that I get in the office. The overall trend in office lighting is to less overall light and more task light. You don't need a lot of light to talk to someone. OK, to look someone in the eye, to have a conversation. You really do not need very much light. As many people in the romantic world know. Candlelight is wonderful for that. But to do an office task like if you have to look at small text like a spreadsheet or something. Print out. The finer the task, the lighter you need. So, we try to get offices to put the light where you need it. A lot of people are bothered by really bright lights the whole day long and we are seeing increases in eye fatigue and dry eye. I think the dry eye might be a little bit more complicated. That's a lot newer research coming out about looking at computer screens. We're kind of at the first generation now that has worked in front of a computer screen their whole career. Peter Koch: All the time. Yeah. Yeah. Maureen Anderson: So now people have been working with computers, you know, 40 years staring at a screen and we're seeing a lot more dry eye. You blink a lot less when you look at that. It's direct light into your eye. Some people say the blue light spectrums think there's a lot more research that needs to be done there. But just out in the field, I am hearing that. Peter Koch: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. And is very two dimensional as well, where if you're doing something at a desk, you have the three-dimensional effect of a pen or a pencil, the paper, and you're constantly changing the... Maureen Anderson: You're changing your focal distance all the time. So, you're looking at close far, you know, small changes. But when people are at a computer screen, you know, it's arm's length away, you know, 20 to 24 inches. And they're looking at that focal distance all day with very little interruption. And that can be very fatiguing to the eyes. And it's interesting because that distance, that arm's length, I would think it's kind of interesting that comes from resting focal distance. If you're to close your eyes in a completely dark room and let your eyes relax and they flick on the lights. That's the distance you would be focused on. No kidding. Yeah. So resting eye accommodation that they think comes from, you know, cavemen, people coming up to attack you. You have to be able to defend yourself at an arm's length. Peter Koch: So interesting. So not even just to learn peace, but over almost an evolutionary part for us, which is... Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: We are changing, or you know, we've have to think about it. If I'm working at my desk, I'm close to an arm's length if I'm seated in a relaxed posture. Yeah, but if I'm looking at a computer screen, I know I've seen people that are leaning the way in. Maureen Anderson: Yes. They're trying to get their eyes a lot closer. Yeah. And then we also have in the office world, frankly, most people wear some type of glasses these days, too. Right. So, we have the basics and then we have this other tool that sits in between it. So, you have to accommodate for that, too. A lot of people use readers, drugstore readers, which actually are designed for a focal distance of 10 to 12 inches, like you're holding a book and a computer is a little bit further away. So often what I'll see when people are wearing those, you know, the Dollar Store readers is they are leaning forward either like this or like that, trying to get into that 12-inch focal distance. Peter Koch: Sure. Maureen Anderson: They do make computer readers. They're slightly more expensive. You can get them at a lot of dollar stores and drugstores and those have the focal distance of the 22 inches. Peter Koch: I think it is interesting. So, I have progressive lenses that I wear. Yeah, well I have to because otherwise I have to... Yeah. Well that's a whole other story. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: So, for me to work in front of the computer, I actually have a pair of glasses, prescription glasses for my script that is... Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: ...That computer distance away. So that's interesting. I just thought it was I did it because it was the best way for me to be able to see the whole screen instead of looking through the section of my glasses that are there, which caused me to have awkward posture. Maureen Anderson: Yes, it's very common. I got my first progressive lenses this year and I couldn't adapt to them. I don't even use that. That's a terrible thing for an ergonomist to say but had to do with astigmatism that they're correcting for, that every time I turn my head, I felt like the whole world was spinning with me. I need to go back and do something about those. But yes, if you wear a progressive's or bifocals, often the monitor has to be lowered and angled because that tool, those glasses, are assuming you're going to be focusing at something down here. Keep your distance vision is right at eye level. Peter Koch: Excellent. OK. So, we've talked about the risk factors a number of risk factors. So, we have lighting is a risk factor. We have awkward posture, static postures. We have pressure... Maureen Anderson: Force. Peter Koch: ...Force and pressure, reaching. Maureen Anderson: And repetition that often comes up because, gosh, when was it back in the 80s and 90s. Carpal tunnel was a huge thing. And it's interesting that we don't see as much of that anymore, though. It's still out there. People assuming that it was all the repetition in the fingers from typing. Turns out the hands do handle repetition very well. I mean, we can kind of type along fairly well without having problems from repetition. But when you combine it with a bent wrist, increased force deviation like this with the risk, then we don't handle the repetition as much. NIOSH at one point put out some guidelines for repetition that were never really adopted. They kind of died on the vine for political reasons, I think. Saying that, you know, the repetition for hands would be around typing 90 words per minute your hands can handle, it was like, 200 exertions a minute. But when you get into something like your shoulder then it's only like three times per minute before it becomes problematic. Right. So, our shoulders do not handle repetition as much. So, what we're finding often with a computer, sometimes it's not the typing, but sometimes it's that reaching to the mouse. OK, especially, when the mouse is at a distance. So now we're getting some shoulder exertions and elbow exertions that are going on quite frequently, some typing mouse like that. And so, we do see some problems in the elbow and sometimes the shoulder and sometimes even down into the hand. Peter Koch: Now, that makes a lot of sense. OK, so we have awkward postures at our workstation. We have odd reaching postures, pressure, lighting, and our body tells us that we are having an issue, stiffness, a little bit of pain. But if we ignore those and we just keep on going. So, what are the long-term implications of having those risk factor or engaging in those work factors or risk factors within the workstation? Maureen Anderson: Ok. So, the long-term effects can be permanent damage to the nerves. OK, muscles heal fairly quickly. So, stiffness and muscles you usually can do something about. But when you don't address it, sometimes you can lead to damage. In the nerves and in the tendons and in the ligaments, ligaments take an awful long time to heal. Nerves essentially do not heal. OK. Once a nerve is damaged it's kind of done. Fortunately, in the human body, we have a great system with so much redundancy that the nerves of the electrical system, they can reroute usually, but you can get to points where you have done so much damage, it cannot be repaired easily with today's technology, which is always changing. So that's really where you're getting into some of the long-term effects. There's other things like from prolonged sitting and lack of movement, you know, your blood chemistry starts to change and that can lead to increased risks for heart disease, even some stroke and things like that, the DBT, the blood clots in the legs and things like that. So those are all long-term effects that you don't want to deal with. Peter Koch: Yeah. Interesting. So, something as simple as again, sitting at the desk in the office. If we ignore the effects that a poorly designed workstation might have or even if it's a well-designed workstation and we're engaging in it poorly because of our habits. Maureen Anderson: Right. There's always that. You have the environment and you have the person and you have the behavior. So, you can have the perfect environment. You can have the perfect five-thousand-dollar office chair. If you sit there all day and never move, you're going to end up with some problems. Peter Koch: Have you seen that? Have you seen a really well-designed workstation and the person's just still having issues at it because of just the habits, the postural habits that they've learned over time? Maureen Anderson: Yes, I do. I see people with a lot of habits. I'm seeing actually sometimes people don't have the issues yet. And that's always a hard thing for me to deal with. I'll see generally a younger person I'm gonna pick on a young male that I worked with once who tells me he is perfectly comfortable, and he is working what I call kind of the gaming posture. Hard to demonstrate in this chair, slouched back like this as if they are gaming on their computer and they tell me that this is the most comfortable way for them to work. They're not having any issues. And if I try to make them sit up, they say this is uncomfortable. I can't work that way. And that's a really hard thing to do because I feel I work in the prevention business. I want to prevent injuries. So, when you go when you see someone like that, I'm thinking, no, you're not having any problems because you're 22 years old. You do this for another, even 10 years in your early 30s, you're going to be feeling it. Probably the first place is gonna be up on their neck because there, when they're doing that, they have poor head posture. So, yeah, that's the issue. Peter Koch: Let me just describe that that gaming posture that you had there. So, it's not a typical office posture that you might have, but we do see it. We see it all the time in offices now. Yeah. It's become more and more prevalent because of the habits that they have when they're outside of the office, so they are bringing that in. So that gaming posture that you describe as slouched down low in the chair, hips very forward on the seat pan that they have. Maureen Anderson: Arms up high. Peter and Maureen: Arms are up high, neck forward and dense and... Maureen Anderson: Sometimes support and sometimes not. Peter and Maureen: Yeah. Maureen Anderson: I think sometimes people do that not only from gaming, but also because of laptops. And I think in schools, in college, a lot of people are using laptops only. And so, when you have that monitor so low and the keyboard there, they're sort of adapting to it by get either going like this or going like that. Peter Koch: Sure. So, hunching forward or leaning backwards. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. And in an office environment, we like to say we're a little bit more evolved. We have docking stations or external monitors, external keyboards so that we can adjust more to the human body, how it's designed. Peter Koch: And so very interesting, too. So, the habits that people bring with them can really even overcome good workplace design. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Yes. Certainly. Behavior is Huge. And how people choose to use it. Peter Koch: So, I think going back and just considering that in that the first item we discussed was neutral posture. So, understanding neutral, not necessarily being able to work in neutral posture, but understanding what neutral posture looks like and then how far you deviate from neutral posture in your work posture can then help you understand the effects of that work posture over time. Because if neutral posture is going to be the best overall, not from a fatigue standpoint, but actually from a support standpoint. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: Using the body dynamics and structure as it was designed, then I can look at it. And so, if I work out of neutral, I need to make sure that I only do that for so long before I change the posture into another posture that could again be neutral. Maureen Anderson: We always say around 20 minutes; you should be changing your posture every 20 minutes. And so often in an office environment I try to set people up to neutral as close to neutral as I can get in a seated posture as the kind of starting posture, so you get people, give the people opportunity to have that posture, and then if they choose to slouch, to go back, to change it, at least in theory, they will come back to that neutral in between those other postures. We often talk about comfort postures, things like people crossing their legs. And, you know, a lot of research will tell you, oh, people shouldn't cross their legs. That's not good for the circulation in the legs. But I can tell you, there's almost no way you were going to change those comfort postures, especially when people are stressed, they revert to them. They're going to cross their legs. You know, they're going to chew on their fingers. They're going to do what they're going to do. So, I would much rather tell people it's OK to do that limit it to 20 minutes and then switch to a different posture. So, if you're gonna cross your leg, that's OK, but you only do it for 20 minutes. The dreaded one is people sitting on one leg, which is more common amongst women. That they'll kind of curl one leg under them and sit on one leg and it's usually always the same leg. So, I tell them again, 20 minutes, then you've got to switch to something else. Peter Koch: Interesting. So, let's think about this. So, before we get into how to change the workstation, let's talk about what someone can do besides changing the workstation. So, if I if my body's telling me that, like I'm stiff and I'm a little sore or I'm tired, I'm fatigued, what can a person do at their workstation to combat some of that besides changing it? Maureen Anderson: Right. So, the movement is probably the biggest one is to change your posture, to probably stand up, perhaps reset your back by going into a slight back extension. I mean, we love it if people do stretch programs, but it almost doesn't matter which stretch you do in a lot of ways. I think it's the fact that you bring that attention back to yourself. You've thought about your posture because that's what you're thinking about when you stretch it almost to sort of just resets the person. So, I also believe in compromise. A lot of times people say we don't have time to stretch. And I'm like, well, you might have time to do five shoulder rolls. You know, that's five seconds. And you can be talking on the phone at the same time. You can be thinking about what you're doing, but you could do five shoulder rolls, and something is infinitely better than nothing. Peter Koch: Yeah, very true. Maureen Anderson: So, to do some kind of movement, it's probably the number one thing that you can do. Peter Koch: Ok, so, yeah shoulder rolls would be a good one, even just standing up if you have to answer the phone instead of staying seated while you answer the phone. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Yes. We used to give that advice. We still do sometimes that, you know, if you can just stand when you answer the phone to say hello. Hello, Maureen. This is Maureen at MEMIC. And then you can sit right back down. Even that couple of seconds can really be good. But also, just standing and sort of gently taking your back into extension, that can be really good for the back. Peter Koch: Excellent. Peter and Maureen: Yeah. Peter Koch: So, any kind of movement and activity at the workstation can help combat, maybe not overcome, but they can combat some of those awkward postures from starting postures. Maureen Anderson: In ergonomics we talk about reengineering as the change. And then what you can't change, then how do you sort of adjust to accommodate it? And that's usually what we're talking about in movement. So, if you can't change your workstation, you know, then you can change your habits, your behaviors. Add a little bit of movement. Stand up. Talk to somebody. You know, I love to see water bottles on people's desks or big coffee mugs because I know they have to get up to get the water in. They have to get up to get the water out. So that's going to promote some motion. There's a movement in the office place just by having that. Peter Koch: And certainly, hydration overall. Maureen Anderson: Yes, hydration is good. Yes. Peter Koch: Very. And even outside the ergonomic part, hydration helps with cognition, helps with focus. Helps you. Helps your brain activity in your body activity. So, hydration and health go hand-in-hand. So... Maureen Anderson: And so, does movement. I mean, they've done research. I think it was on rats navigating mazes. And if they put the rat on a little exercise wheel for, I don't know how long it was, I forget all the details, but like 20 seconds, then they would navigate the maze more than 20 seconds faster. Right. So would make up for that little bit of motion. Peter Koch: Interesting. So... Maureen Anderson: Not that we're rats in mazes, but... Peter Koch: No, but when we think about it. So, brain activity, which is essential for all of our work, no matter how monotonous it is or how high stress that job might be, brain function is critical to all of that. And hydration and nutrition motion, blood flow... Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: All help with that. I was listening to or I read a study somewhere that said that the brain consumes somewhere around 50 percent of. The calories taken in during the day just for brain activity. I might be a little off on that, but a lot more than you would think, considering that it is a very small part of the overall body mass. But it consumes a lot of energy. Maureen Anderson: A lot of resources. Peter Koch: A lot of resources. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: So, if I'm just static sitting there, it's kind of like standing with your legs locked. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: A neutral posture for a long time. I'm burning a lot of calories to stay in that position, but I don't have a lot of demand for oxygen. So therefore, I'm not as efficient doing it. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Yes. And I was just going to talk about when people talk about dynamic workstations and standing. We do know in the applied world that if you're doing real heavy cognitive lifting, really difficult tasks, most people will prefer to sit because I think their brain needs a little bit. So, I tell people when they're first moving into dynamic workstations, make sure you use it for all those routine tasks. That's why I tell people sometimes leave it in the up position when they go home, because usually when people come to work, the first 15, 20 minutes are, you know, firing up the computer, checking the e-mail, checking the schedules, all those routine tasks. And if you can stand during that, that's usually pretty easy. But if you're doing really tough, difficult tasks and what's difficult for one person, it's not difficult for another person. And when people are starting a job and learning, everything is difficult. So, all those things are going to change over time. Peter Koch: Very good. Hey, we're going to take a quick break. So, we're going to continue with more discussion here with Maureen, but we'll take a short break and we'll be back in just a moment. Maureen Anderson: Ok. Peter Koch: Welcome back to the Safety Experts podcast. Today, we're talking with Maureen Anderson, safety consultant and certified ergonomist at MEMIC. So, let's jump back into more questions, Maureen. So earlier we were discussing how your workstation, or your desk setup can affect you, those short-term effects, some of those risk factors. And we also talked a little bit about what you can do at your workstation to combat some of those risk factors or those early warning signs that your body's providing you with. To tell you, to start moving. But let's talk about what you can do to change your workstation. So, as you come into an office and you're looking at an office setup, what do you look for in the setup itself and how the person's interacting and what things might you change in that workstation? Maureen Anderson: Ok. I'll sort of walk you through how I do a workstation evaluation and everyone or other ergonomists might do it slightly different. So, when I go in, what I like to do is take a picture of their posture. OK. The first thing I'd like to do is I say, show me your how you would send an email. OK. And then I take a picture. Now, a couple of things happen with that, is one, whenever you put a camera on someone. They show you what they think they want to show you. And that may not always be the truth. So, I will generally, though, start with that picture and then I'll ask them what's going on. And the other thing I've learned from people over time is they're going to tell me what they want to tell me, whether I let them or not. So, it's best just to get it out in the open right away. So, someone might say everything in here is fine, but this rug is really bothering me. And if I don't let them get that, we are gonna be stuck on the rug the whole evaluation. So, it's best just to let people have their little free for all. Tell me what's going on. They often do know what's going on better than I can know in a few minutes of watching. So, they will give me a lot of good information. When I first started doing evaluations, I would use a checklist method to do an evaluation. The wonderful thing about a checklist, it makes it very thorough. It reminds you of all those things, so you don't skip a task. Maureen Anderson: So, I would use a checklist and I would go through and would measure the height of their tasks, the distance of their monitor, information like that. Generally, I might note about if height was an issue. For instance, I evaluated a woman who is four foot nine yesterday. So, I would note that in my notes and then I would try to get all the measurements of that person. Maureen Anderson: I might look at their seated elbow height. That's when their feet are flat on the floor. So, I adjust the chair, so their feet are flat on the floor. And then I would measure from the floor to the bottom of their elbow to get that height. I do that without looking at the computer because it may be different than how they are set up when they're at the computer. Peter Koch: So why is that important, that seated elbow? How do you how does that factor in? Maureen Anderson: Because your elbow height should be approximately the same height as your keyboard. OK. So, if I get a seated elbow height, let's say it's 26 inches and then I have them turn and go back to the computer, but I already know their desk is 29 inches. I know that there's a disconnect there, and so then I want to see how they're adjusting for it. It can be either they're hunching their shoulders up to get their elbows higher or it could be that they're pushing things further away. Because when you extend your reach, your elbows come up. So, I like to have that information because I already know that there's a disconnect there between the two heights, but I want to see how they're adjusting to it. Peter Koch: So, you're looking at... initially you're looking at the person and how... Maureen Anderson: They're interacting with their environment. Peter Koch: How they're interacting with their environment before you actually look at the environment to see how it affects them. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Yes. So, I usually start with the person get sort of a basic overview of the person. And then I'm starting to look at their environment, getting the lay of the land, so to speak, and then also the whole time we're sort of talking and sharing information about what they do. For instance, often there's some physical complaint. They may say that, I don't know, their shoulders are really achy. Only on one side, let's say their right side. So, you know, I may ask are you righthanded or lefthanded? You know, what else do you do in your day? They may say that they are scanning documents and feeding pieces of paper into a feeder for three hours a day. And they're doing one every second or something like that. So, I'll try to find out what else they do in their day, because those are also contributing factors. My job is to look at the work environment, but sometimes they will share information about what they do outside of work. Sometimes that's just more of an FYI, if we're looking at something that may be a repetitive issue and they tell me there are into competitive crochet or something like that, that's highly repetitive, I may note that down. But generally, that's not really a concern of mine. What they're doing outside of the job, I'm looking at the workplace. Peter Koch: Sure. But it might even make what they're doing outside of work. My highlight for you to them how important it is for them to move more to keep it set up more correctly, because the risk factors outside of work can challenge the risk factors that work. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Yes. Peter and Maureen: Enhance them or make them worse. Maureen Anderson: I will tell a little amusing anecdote about a gentleman I evaluated once and he had really terrible posture leaning on to his elbows like a 45-degree forward bend, really onto his elbow, everything down low. And I was like, wow, you know, this is interesting. Why do you do this? And he said, well, he was a triathlete and he used aero bars on his bike where he's really hunched forward like that. And he said he's training himself at work to hold that posture for a long time to help his triathlon performance. I was like, well, I really don't think that's going to help. I think it's actually probably going to hurt you to be in that posture for hours and hours a day and then to get on your bike and continue to do that awkward posture all that time. And I said it's different when you're on a bike, you're pedaling, you're moving. You have a lot of other things going on. So, I felt that was a little bit misguided of him. But we had a little chat and I'm not convinced that he's probably still not doing that. But that gets back to behavior. I only can do what I can do. I can make recommendations. I don't have a whip. I don't use a cattle prod to zap people when they are doing things they shouldn't be doing. Peter Koch: Certainly. But in a just a brief Segway, though, you hit on a really important point, that post evaluation, when the recommendations come back and whether it's a change in the workstation or it's a change in behavior that the employer has to hold accountable the employees for doing this, because I mean, it happens often that people will try to do things at work that will, in their mind, help them in personal activities. And that's sort of an extreme example you brought up, but I think it can be applied in other areas. So if the recommendation is to change your posture frequently at your workstation, then the employer's supervision has to be there to help hold those people accountable to do that, because at some point in time, those static postures, regardless of when you do it, will be harmful to you over time. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Yes. I don't know how you could... a lot of this we are talking about people changing behavior, and that is the hardest thing to change. And I don't know from a worker's comp perspective, even how you hold people entirely responsible for behaviors. For instance, someone who does static posture all day and then is convinced that they're so busy that they need to eat lunch at their desk while doing tasks. Right. So, they're not ever taking any breaks. You know, there's a personal side to this. They really do need to take those breaks. Their employer needs to set up an environment, I think, where they're encouraged to take those breaks. But I'm not sure. As an employer, how you would force someone, do you take away their chair from twelve to one every day? Peter Koch: No, but I think you did hit on the three components that are in any performance management formula. Even when you look at it and you start to think in order to have some sort of performance, you have to have motivation, opportunity and ability. So as the employer you can affect motivation by education. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: You can affect opportunity like here at MEMIC inside the office, there's a stretch break that happens. It gets announced. And from a supervision standpoint, I know when I was working more in the office instead of out in the field, that when this the supervisors and the management team got up at the stretch break. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: And we all got up with them. But if they didn't, we didn't all tend to come out of our cubicles. So, it's an interesting piece of there's a little bit of motivation, opportunity provided, an expectation provided by the employer. Peter and Maureen: The expectation that, you know, that they get up in the cafeteria or eat in the break room or don't sit during all day and never take any breaks, because people think that that's going to make them seem like they're working harder. But it's really not a good way to be. Peter Koch: Very good. Peter Koch: So, let's continue on with the workstation evaluations. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: You were looking at the person. You had that seated elbow height measurement. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: Which then is important because it is in how it interacts with... Maureen Anderson: The keyboard. Peter Koch: The keyboard and the desk that they have in the mouse and then everything else that's on it. So, after the seated elbow height measurements and you're starting to get information about what they do, how they do it, how often they do it complaints that they already have. Where else do you look? Maureen Anderson: I look at the monitor height. The top of the monitor should be approximately eye level. OK, unless they are wearing glasses like progressive's or bifocals and then it may be lower. The distance should be about, we say, arm's length. But again, everyone's vision is different. And I have had people who like it a lot closer. I've had people who have it to me what seems freakishly far away. But they insist that that is the distance that works best for them. And they want what they are showing me is basic good head posture. So, I have to, you know, believe them. Peter Koch: And they're not having complaints that would associate distance... Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: For that complaint as being one of those factors that would cause something. Maureen Anderson: Right. I look at their wrists. I'm trying to get as close as I can to sort of a straight wrist. No bends up or down or deviating off to the sides. Then, I look at the mouse use. The mouse is one of the evilest devices ever invented by people, I think, as it causes so many problems. I'm looking at the mouse placement, the mouse over time and often will walk further away. I don't know why that is, but I'll see people with a very long reach to their mouse. So, I'm trying to keep that mouse kind of in close. What we're trying to do is most frequent tasks go to sort of the windshield wiper zone in front of them, about 10 to 12 inches away from their torso. Trying... Peter Koch: So, if you think about that, if I am standing at my desk from the sort of the center of my torso, I should come out 10 to 12 inches in an arc... Maureen Anderson:  In an arc, right. Maureen Anderson: So, it allows you to do your motion while keeping your upper arms kind of close to your body. Peter Koch: And so that would that 10 or 12 inches would be where with my elbow right down on my side. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: Reaching out to my desk. And then if I move my hands to the side, that's that arc that we're looking at. Maureen Anderson: Yeah, the windshield wiper. Now, I will say there are some slight changes for that. I do see for women with large chests often that 10 to 12 inches is too close. So, they may need to be a little bit further. It's just the way they're built... Peter Koch: Or men with large torsos as well, women with large torsos depending on stature. Maureen Anderson: Yup. Differences in stature, that may not work. That is a rough guideline. You know, in rough guidelines that are always meant to be adapted or changed a little bit. So I'm looking sort of for the hand posture and I'm looking at the shoulders distance, the reach distances, I'm looking at head posture a lot and really trying to keep people to keep their head in a good posture because that causes such havoc up and to the neck and shoulders. Often when I see people using the telephone and they do what we call cradling, they're trying to hold the telephone between the ear and the shoulder to use both hands on the computer. That, if you do that for more than two minutes at a time, that's considered a risk factor for neck and shoulder pain. Peter Koch: How come? Maureen Anderson: Well, you have the mass of your head that 12 to 14 pounds, which is tilted off its axis, and that's a problem. You're hitching your shoulder up, which takes a lot of muscle activity, and then you have a hard piece of plastic pressing into the soft tissue of your shoulders. So, it's just kind of wrong, wrong, wrong. Usually it causes problems on that side of the shoulder, but sometimes on the neck, on the opposite side can be affected. Peter Koch: And then you're trying to do fine motions either with keyboard or pencil at the same time. Maureen Anderson: Yes, at the same time. And so that can carry all the way down through your hand, down into your hand and into your fingers. So, yeah, it can cause a lot of problems. Peter Koch: And of course, if you do it once, not a huge issue, but it's doing it multiple times throughout the day. Maureen Anderson: And I will have people tell me, oh, I do that for, you know, an hour when I'm on the phone for an hour. And basically, I can tell you there's no way you could hold that posture in a static way for an hour. I don't think a human is capable of that. So, what they're doing is they're doing that and then they're having either to switch it to the other side or they're going to have to take it out. But that is a big risk factor. So, when people do that, I tell them you need to use the telephone headset. And some people are very adverse to a telephone headset because of the quality of sound. And I will tell people the quality of sound has improved, or they're just not used to the whole, I don't even know how to explain it.  With a telephone headset sometimes, people can't tell and they're talking on the phone, and they're dealing with a lot of other people interrupting, and they haven't developed sort of the body language to I tell people I'm on the phone, please don't interrupt.  Though, they do make little, you know, light up tools to alert people. So, I tell people to use a telephone headset or use speaker phone or just use the phone and hold it in their hand. Peter Koch: So that's interesting. I know one of the, well the local automotive shop that we use the receptionist as you walk in the door, the receptionist is right to the right and she has a little light on the counter and there's a sign that says if the light is lit, I'm on the phone. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: And it helps her because she's got a headset and five or six years ago, she was one of those that would cradle the phone between her shoulder and her head and then they ended up getting her the headset and she's much happier. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: But it was a habit changing piece and the reason that she struggled with it was just what you said was there is that demand between productivity and the quality of service that she wants to provide both to the customer on the phone and the customers in there. Maureen Anderson: Yeah, and the other issue often is whether they're wireless or not, whether they're tethered, because some people are just so used to jumping out of their desk and running over to here, and if you've got that leash on you, that can take a while to get used to. But even at MEMIC, you know, not receptionists, a lot of people where telephone headsets. And when you walk up behind them, depending on how, you're never sure if they're on the phone or not. Right? So, you're always it makes you very tentative, you know, are you on the phone, you know, trying to figure it out. But most people master, you know, putting their hand up in some signal to say, you know, please don't interrupt me. Peter Koch: Yeah, interesting. Maureen Anderson: So, it takes a little while to get used to. But that's a great, great office tool. And certainly, with cell phones, we're going that way that people should be using headsets or hand free for everything. Peter Koch: For everything, for sure. Talk to me a little bit more about how evil the mouse is. Maureen Anderson: Evil mouse. Well, I already talked about neutral posture. So, when you bring your hand up to use the mouse and you pronate it down to use the mouse... Peter Koch: Palm down. Maureen Anderson: Palm down, right. A lot of mice, some of them are very small and people use a lot of grip to hold them. They will often grip it between their thumb and their pinky, which can be a very fatiguing grip for the hands. And then also couple that with the external rotation in the shoulder. So, they're kind of reaching off to the side and trying to use their mouse. So, it's almost as if their arm is held way out to the side to use their mouse. Ideally, that mouse is used as a straight line from your shoulder, okay? It's partially it's the design of the keyboard. We have those, the ASDF keys, all the alphabetic keys, which are right in front of you, and if you took high school typing, those central keys should be lined up with your belly button. But the design of the modern keyboard, you have the keyboard, then you have a numeric keypad and then you have your mouse. So that mouse ends up being way off to the side. So sometimes we'll recommend people using their non dominant hand, usually they're use the mouse with their left hand, and most people find that very difficult unless they're in pain. Pain is an incredible motivator for people to change. I myself have tried to left mouse and I could never stick with it. It interrupts your whole cognitive flow. It takes so much attention to use the mouse. It's like I can't think about what I'm trying to mouse to. So, I have a keyboard where the numeric keypad is on the other side. It's called a mouse friendly keyboard. And that allows me to have the keys directly in front of me and my mouse a lot closer. It was easy for myself to train myself to use the numbers with my left hand, already type with my left hand. I can type, touch, type with my left hand. It's a task I can do. So that's one way to approach it. Or some of the keyboards have a detachable numeric keypad and then you can put the mouse and then the numbers way off out at a reach. If you don't use the numbers that often or you can move the numbers either away, if you don't use numeric keypad, or off to the left. Peter Koch: Sure, sure. Maureen Anderson: So, there's ways to do it. Or there is a bar device that goes in front of the keyboard called the Contour RollerMouse, which replaces the mouse. And we've had a lot of great success stories with that task. It's pricey, though, so a lot of companies don't like to go there. They only go there as a last resort. Peter Koch: And with anything else, that change takes time to incorporate into your workflow. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: So, the mouse being challenging because it causes you have to use… or many people will use increase pressure because of the side, which puts that static posture again. Maureen Anderson: They'll hover a finger sometimes over the top button, so they'll be hovering, and so they're sort of holding that finger in contraction for long periods of time. They don't realize it. If you're not doing something with the mouse, you really don't need to be hovering your fingers, you know, at full attention. Peter Koch: I was in an office setting at one time walking in for a meeting, and it was silent in the office space. Everyone was pretty focused and all you could hear were the keyboard actuations and then mouse clicks and the volume of the mouse click, I thought it just struck me as being very loud - louder than I thought it should be because and if I think about it, even my own, as I get focused on my own task, many times I'm clicking that mouse button pretty forcefully. Maureen Anderson: Well, people like to have feedback when they do a task. And there's actually an interesting trend going on in keyboards right now. Back towards mechanical keyboards are digital keyboards they're making smaller and the height of the keys is less and they're very quiet, and sometimes you can't even tell when you hit a key. So, there's been a movement. It's actually come from the gaming community back towards mechanical keyboards, which are rather old fashioned, and they have a real clicky feel. But people like that. Peter Koch: Yeah there's a lot of tactile feedback. Maureen Anderson: Lot of tactile feedback as they're working along, they know what they've done. Peter Koch: And I find that, too, when I'm typing. So, I have a keyboard for my iPad, which is electronic. So, it's just a button actuate and it's not a mechanical actuation and then I have a mechanical keyboard at home that I use with my desktop and I type much harder, the keystrokes are much more forceful on my iPad because of that physical feedback. Maureen Anderson: Yes, and they've done a lot of work, like with an iPad. If you're using the on screen keyboard to make like a little sound or a little bloop to give you to give you some feedback, because without the feedback it's you have to keep checking like did I, did I do it? You know what happened here. Peter Koch: Do it right. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: Interesting. OK, so let's go through and recap. If I were to have a workstation set up appropriately, what would it look like? Maureen Anderson: Ok. So as an ergonomist, I like things to be highly adjustable. I love the new dynamic workstations. You know, electric desks that can go up and down. The converters on top are OK for some people, not for other people. We haven't even talked about dynamic workstations. So much to talk about today! But I like to see people that are working their elbow height is about the same as their keyboard height, the monitor is about eye level, arm's length. These are all sort of just your basic starting points. If what you do needs to be different, then we can, you can adapt to that. But that should really be it. So, elbow height, good head posture, the ears over the shoulder. Generally, we say some back support. It's good to have some back support because it is difficult to sit all day without any back support. Peter Koch: So generally, whether it's standing or seated for a workstation. My elbows should be at my keyboard height. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: The monitor top of the text should be about I height for the monitor. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: So, I shouldn't look up or down. But is it dependent upon glasses? Maureen Anderson: Glasses are often a big factor. Yes. Peter Koch: It should be approximately an arm's length away. And then my mouse should be on the same plane as the keyboard? Maureen Anderson: Same plain as the keyboard, right. So, we're not doing any excessive reaching as it should be as close to you as possible to reduce the reaches. Again, to get a little off track. What I see in the real world, often, is when I go into an office, people have pushed their keyboard and mouse far away in order to have papers close to them. Peter Koch: And so, the important part there is we really want to switch that around. We want to have the keyboard closer or whatever you're using closer. Maureen Anderson: Yes. We try to get the keyboard and the mouse closer and then we get like an inline copy holder to get the papers a little bit further away. Peter Koch: That's a good key point right there. Maureen Anderson: It really depends, though, on what you're doing when it comes to handwriting, that's really the issue because people say, well, I need the papers close because I do a lot of handwriting. And so, then I try to probe. Do they do more handwriting in the day or are they doing more keying? And for most people, it's more keyboard and mouse than it is for writing. Very few people will write long, long parts with a paper and pen. What they're doing is just writing down a phone number. They're just writing down a quick note. They're checking something off. They're not really writing. Peter Koch: Or they might be keying. So that numeric keypad and the mouse so your paper can be here in front of you. The numeric pad that could be separated from the keyboard could be on the left-hand side and your mouse to adjust the cell if you could be on the right. So, but still, everything is within that... Maureen Anderson: Should be close. Peter Koch: Windshield wiper plane, nice and close to you? Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: Good. Maureen Anderson: But you have to look at what a person does. And as I said, when I go in, they usually are changing their behavior for me because, right. They're going to sit up straighter. Peter Koch: They want to get a good grade. Maureen Anderson: They want to get a good grade. So sometimes I will look at their co-workers actually not them to see what everyone else is doing, because that's sometimes, you know, we have sort of a herd mentality. So, if I see everyone else has things pushed way far away, then I start to suspect, you know, maybe they do. Or I'll see wear and tear on the desk. I'll see worn spots in their chair. Maybe I'll see really ripped up arms. So, I know that chair is banging into the desk. So, I'm looking for other hints as to where things are. You can you know, you can almost see dust patterns from where their stuff usually is, and I can tell they've moved it just for me. Peter Koch: So, do you have or are there any tips for - because we're seeing this a lot more in the workplace now, for multiple monitors? Maureen Anderson: Oh yeah. Peter Koch: Let's look at like a two-monitor setup. Where should they be in relationship to like the center plane of the person? Maureen Anderson: I did have one person with six monitors once and I was like, that is a lot of information to be looking at. Peter Koch: They win. Maureen Anderson: Right? They won. Right. We take whatever they look at most of the time, that is their dominant monitor. We like to have that front and center. OK. The secondary or tertiary and I don't even know what you call it when it's six your, “sixtiary” one. You can have arrayed around you, trying to minimize a static neck twist. So, you don't want to be looking for an hour with your head twisted off to one side. That's why we say the primary one is directly in front of you. Most common now I see is two monitors. So, if you use them equally, then we would have them sort of centered in front of you. But it's all about head posture, trying to get you in the best head posture. I do see a lot of situations where people have one monitor in front of you, in front of them, and then they'll have a small monitor like on a laptop or an iPad. And so, I really have to you know, if they're just looking over at that because it's their calendar, and that's all they're doing, then it's, you know, I'm OK with it. But if they're looking down and typing on that one, then I'm saying, well, maybe that's your primary monitor and we need to get that in a better location. Peter Koch: So those key points would go back to the multiple monitor setup. So, whatever you're doing primarily should be in that center line. So. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: Your body center line, your keyboard should be in the center. Your primary monitor should be in the center. Maureen Anderson: Should be in the primary. Yep. Peter Koch: The things that you do most frequently should be closer, use most frequently should be closest to your body. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: And then the things that you do intermittently, whether it's like stapling or printing or whatever those are. Move them farther away, so it forces you to actually get up and move. Maureen Anderson: And that's a great point. I'm glad you brought that up. It's somewhat counterintuitive. But like printers, sometimes people try to have that printer in close because they're reaching to it all the time. Really, they're probably not reaching to it all the time. And sometimes we do we say move that further away. That's a technique to get people out of their chairs or if they're in a dynamic workstation and they're standing to take a couple of extra steps to get that movement back in their day. Peter Koch: Awesome. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: So, as we come to a close here. Think about, are there maybe a couple, three or four key points that you'd like to leave us with from our workstation setup or how to work safely in an office setting? Maureen Anderson: Right. So first of all, I would say everyone is different. So, you have to adjust that workstation for the person. Right. So, if they're very short, their keyboards are going to need to be lower. Their monitors are going to be lower if they're very tall. You know, we're gonna need to change that. Most workstations are designed to hit kind of 90 percent of the population. But having said that, there are plenty of people who are below 5 foot 2 or above 6 foot 2 because that 90 percent is about 5' 2" to 6' 2". So, people at those other ends may not work well with the off the shelf equipment. They may need some special things. Peter Koch: So. Maureen Anderson: So again, yeah. Peter Koch: From an onboarding standpoint, if I'm bringing people in to work in an office, knowing that if I'm going to have workstations that fit these people, I might be hiring somebody that's outside of the design parameters for that workstation. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: I have to look at the person and the workstations. Maureen Anderson: And the workstation. And that. Peter Koch:  So, it should be adjustable. Maureen Anderson: Right. One of the great things I love about the dynamic workstations is even if people aren't using it as much as they should. And I'm always telling them they should be changing. At least I know when a new person comes into that workstation, if they're a lot different stature from the previous person, you know, with a couple of hand cranks or a push of a button, you can adjust it to their needs, which is great. Peter Koch: Workstation adjustability would be key, it helps not only to get the person to move, but it also helps the company to allow the workstation to be adjusted to the stature of a person. Maureen Anderson: Right. And for their changing needs and staff, to make those changes. And the other one is behavior, right? It's to change the workstation, to be adjustable for the person, but to encourage the behavior where people are going to move and change their posture during the day. You talked about giving opportunities, things like there is a place to eat away from their desk. There are plenty of opportunities for people to get up and move. And so, you know, in the culture, sometimes people don't like to see people away from their desks. You know where it may be better if you have an issue to get up and walk down the hall and talk to that person rather than sending them an email. Whatever, whatever it is in that work environment. And to also understand that most people have a job to do. I understand that, they are focused on getting their job done, which is usually a short term. They're not thinking about how their body is going to be 30 years down the pike after they've been sitting at that desk for so long and for education on that issue. You have to educate and educate and educate and educate. You know, you have to constantly be reminding people. Peter Koch: So, on the education point, can you suggest some resources that people could access to help educate staff about workplace ergonomics or office? Maureen Anderson: Sure. We have the Safety Director at MEMIC for all our policy holders and we have a huge library of videos that they can stream with sort of the Netflix of safety videos that people can stream. It's nice to give people training when they're new to set the expectation that their workstation can be adjusted, who they can go to if they need something different. But then also yearly, it's nice to give a little bit of a refresher or, you know, more than that. It's nice to have stretch posters and things like that out there where people are reminded. And then just the constant culture stretching works really well at some organizations where they do it together because of kind of the peer or the herd mentality that goes with it. Other places that does not work so well. So, it really depends on the organization. Peter Koch: Yeah, sure. And then from a managerial standpoint, if I'm going to look into a workstation and look at a workstation, we have some resources that could help like with a checklist... Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: That they can use to evaluate a workstation. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. MEMIC, we have some simple checklist or at least I think they're pretty simple. But I do this all day. The ten tips for the office fit where you can go through and just gives you 10 things that you check yes or no. And pretty simple ways to address them. Peter Koch: Yeah. So, if it's not this, it should be this. And then you can adjust so it looks like that. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Yeah. Peter and Maureen: There are a lot of top ten tips in and. Peter Koch: I think there's one on chairs as well. Maureen Anderson: Yep. There's some handouts on chairs. Chairs are difficult. Chairs are very difficult. I will say this about chairs. You know, in some ways you get what you pay for. So sometimes a really inexpensive chair is only going to last about a year or two. They're just not built to last. Rough guideline, they say its warranty plus, two, I think for a chair. So, if you're buying a chair that only has a one-year warranty, you really only can expect to get... Peter Koch: Maybe three. Maureen Anderson: Three years out of it. But if you get a good quality chair, they're going to have like a five- or seven-year warranty. So, we get a lot more out of it. I have seen chairs that are being used older than the person sitting in them. So that tells you something. They're not meant to last forever. I think, in my own opinion, the new crop of chairs that's out, I don't think are as good as sort of the last generation. They've kind of combined a lot of adjustments. There's not as much adjustability. The chair manufacturers will tell you that the market wants it so. Peter Koch: Well and if people are utilizing a dynamic workstation. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: Where they're not spending as much time in their chair than that might be a beneficial thing. Maureen Anderson: Right. Right. Peter Koch: Time will tell. So that's - those are all real - those are really great points. Maureen Anderson: All issues that are will work themselves out over the next few years. I think. Peter Koch: Great. Well, thanks very much, Maureen I really appreciate you being here today. So that kind of wraps up this portion of this week safety experts podcast. So, thanks for sharing your expertise with us. Do you have any final comments that you like to leave with our listeners? Maureen Anderson: No, I don't. I think knowing that MEMIC is very committed to preventing some of the workplace injuries that can happen over a long period of time from set up in the office and I know I love going out and doing workstation evaluations because sometimes it's so simple and I get such great feedback from people. It's a simple change. And they're like, wow. Peter Koch: Perfect. That always feels good to make someone feel good. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: It's great. Maureen Anderson: It does. Peter Koch: Well, perfect. Well, thanks again for joining us today. And to all of our listeners out there, if you have any questions for our guests, or would like to hear more about a particular topic or a certain person on our podcast E-mail us at [email protected]. This podcast is presented by MEMIC, a leader in workers compensation insurance and a company committed to the health and safety of all workers. To learn more about how MEMIC can help your business, visit MEMIC.com. Don't forget about our upcoming workshops and webinars and for dates about those, you can also find them on MEMIC.com. When you want to hear more from the Safety Experts, you can find us on iTunes or right here at MEMIC.com. And if you have a smart speaker, you can tell it to play the Safety Experts podcast and you can pick today's episode or even a previous one. You can also enable the Safety Experts podcast skill on Alexa to receive safety tips and advice from any of our episodes. We really appreciate you listening and encourage you to share this podcast with your friends and co-workers. Let them know that they can find it on their favorite podcast player by searching for the Safety Experts. And thanks again for tuning in to the Safety Experts podcast. And remember, you can always learn more by subscribing to the podcast at MEMIC.com/podcast. Resources/Articles/People Mentioned in Podcast MEMIC - https://www.memic.com/ Peter Koch - https://www.memic.com/workplace-safety/safety-consultants/peter-koch Maureen Anderson - https://www.memic.com/workplace-safety/safety-consultants/maureen-anderson NIOSH - https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/index.htm Contour RollerMouse - https://www.contourdesign.com/product-category/rollermouse/ MEMIC’s Safety Director - https://www.memic.com/workplace-safety