Protection at the Edge - How your fall protection equipment can let you down with David Kozlowsky

According to the National Safety Council, following highway crashes, falls to a lower level is the third leading fatal workplace event and the fifth leading event resulting in cases with days away from work. In many cases fall protection is relatively simple.  Put up some sort of engineering control that prevents the workers from access the unprotected edge – like guardrails.  Other times, the work being done requires a personal fall arrest system with the anchor located at or near floor level.  Not all systems can do this and making the wrong choice can be fatal. On this episode of the MEMIC Safety Experts Podcast, I speak with David Kozlowsky, President and Owner of Safe Approach in Poland, Maine about the leading edge in fall protection and what goes into picking the right system.   Peter Koch: [00:00:04] Hello, listeners, and welcome to the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast, I'm your host, Peter Koch. According to the National Safety Council, following highway crashes, falls to a lower level is the third leading fatal workplace event and the fifth leading event, resulting in cases with days away from work. So, yeah, you guessed it. We're talking about falls and fall protection today. Getting back to the stats in 2019, out of the eight hundred and eighty eight thousand nonfatal injuries and illnesses involving days away from work, 711 workers died and 48,000 were injured in 2019. And if you dig a little bit deeper to put some perspective on the seriousness of those injuries caused by a fall to a lower level, the median days away from work were 22, compared to only eight days for other exposures. So that makes it a little bit different. You can almost be assured [00:01:00] if someone falls from a height to a lower level and gets hurt, they're going to have a more substantial injury than someone who might just fall on the same level or maybe a slip trip without a fall. So and in many cases, fall protection. When you think about falling from a height or falling to a lower level fall protection can be relatively simple. You put up some sort of engineering control that prevents the workers from accessing the unprotected edge like guardrails. But other times the work is done or near the unprotected edge and the anchor location, or the design of the anchor doesn't allow for a restraint system or the location itself doesn't allow for those guardrails, and it becomes a little bit more challenging. So a good example of that may be installing metal decking for flooring in a multistory building. Or even if you're a residential carpenter building a deck that's more than six feet off the ground. There's plenty of complications when you're doing leading edge work, like when the unprotected edge has a sharp or narrow radius or your anchor is [00:02:00] below your D ring. And those can combine to render traditional fall protection solutions like a personal fall arrest system with a shock absorbing lanyard ineffective and to confuse matters even more if you look out to the experts. Well, when you're choosing that fall resolution and you jump out to the OSHA standard, or maybe if you go up to the ANSI standards, they use the term leading edge in different ways. Peter Koch: [00:02:25] So on today's podcast, to help us explore the leading edge as it applies to fall protection and clear up some confusion about best practices, we have David Kozlowsky, president and owner of Safe Approach right here in Portland, Maine, and led by David Safe Approach their team designs and builds fall protection systems from harnesses, anchors and lifelines to safety netting and custom fall protection worksite solutions. And over the years, they've developed some really creative fall prevention solutions for a variety of different industries. And so I'm actually here [00:03:00] in David's office today. We're doing the podcast Offsite. We got tired of doing the WebEx and Zoom things, so we're in person doing it together. We just took a tour of the shop floor and saw where the magic happens, so it's pretty cool. So David, you're getting to be a regular here on the podcast. So welcome back. David Kozlowsky: [00:03:16] Thank you, Peter. I appreciate it. These are fun. I like doing them, so it's good to good to come back. Thanks for having me. Peter Koch: [00:03:22] It's awesome. So before we jump into the topic, I want to kind of pick your brain some more. So is there anything new on the horizon for safe approach or in the fall protection industry? David Kozlowsky: [00:03:32] There are a few things that we're working on as a as a company. There's a few products that are not necessarily ready for the market yet, but there are some items that I have been working on long term. I've been working on a self rescue device, got some neat ideas on that. It'll be kind of revolutionary if it does come out. So I don't want to give away too many secrets, but it's a way for we've [00:04:00] been approached several times in the past years, especially with actually the new aerial work platform standard, which I understand you're going to be talking to somebody about with self rescue. And so what we're trying to do is we're trying to develop a reasonably seamless way where someone can have something attached to them that's moderately unobtrusive that would allow them to work as normal. And then if they were to fall off of something and rescue was not easily or readily available, actually be able to rescue themselves by lowering themselves to the ground. Peter Koch: [00:04:37] That's a great idea and a very challenging problem to manage within the workplace. And it's one of the conversations that I have with all my policyholders and clients from around. That's the part of the plan that they're missing is the rescue part. David Kozlowsky: [00:04:52] And it's the item itself is when I first started looking at it, it really seemed like such a simple concept to me. [00:05:00] There's lots of defenders on the market, especially for climbing, I mean, this is a regular occurrence. These people use these types of things, but when you started, as you do with everything in fall protection, when you start trying to figure out how to make it at least reasonably universal for everybody to purchase and sell and not custom for each individual. And when you start looking at the foolproof factor, we try to make something that is easy to use as possible. And there's fewer ways for the user to make a mistake, especially in this application. When you're talking about probably being scared hanging, who knows how far above and you're nervous and you're shaking. And you know, the more things that you have to think about or do the likelihood of making a mistake or failing at it just goes up exponentially. So when I started factoring in different things, like different weights of people and having to arrest the fall in different ways of being able to go from a fall arrest [00:06:00] to actually disconnecting the fall arrest onto something else and again having it foolproof and having as fewer functions as possible. I bit off a lot. It's a it's a challenging task, but we're there. We're working on it and I don't want to promise of when it'll be out, but it's definitely on the horizon, something we're working on. We're working on some ladder stuff. The ladder standard changed in 2018. So there's, you know, even though that was a few years ago, they gave people till twenty thirty six to kind of modify and update their ladders that have cages. And so we've started to notice a slight uptick in people, you know, trying to take that serious and trying to be proactive. So we're working on a few things to try to get ahead of the curve on that, too. So when people really do start working on all those ladders there's got to be a million of them out there and people will start having to retrofit those. Peter Koch: [00:06:56] They will. And that'll probably happen in twenty thirty five, David Kozlowsky: [00:06:59] 2035, exactly [00:07:00] if they if they start that early, they have until November of 2036. Peter Koch: [00:07:05] So yeah, David Kozlowsky: [00:07:07] I expect around August, September, I'll start getting calls. Peter Koch: [00:07:13] You know, it's a really great point changing of the ladder standard and the modification of fixed ladders to have either a personal fall arrest system or a ladder safety device incorporated into it. It's a pretty that's a pretty big nut to crack when you consider all of the ladders that are out there and just in Maine where we are, there's a ton. It's not just your it's not just a lot of your older manufacturing facilities or the mills. You can start looking at recreation, and there's a lot of every tower on a ski lift has a fixed ladder. David Kozlowsky: [00:07:45] Has a fixed ladder yeah. Peter Koch: [00:07:46] And at some point the ones that are 24 feet or higher are going to have to be modified. David Kozlowsky: [00:07:52] And we have a cable system already, so we do have our own. I've been slow with the rigid rail portion of it, and there are times when a rigid [00:08:00] rail for various reasons I won't get into today is kind of the only option available, but there are certain features that I want it to be able to do, and I also need to make sure I don't obviously violate anybody's patents. So I've been working on trying to come up with my own idea for how I'd like that to work. Peter Koch: [00:08:19] So yeah, that's cool. And like you alluded to, you know, there's only so many ways to skin that particular cat. So yeah, and there are new ways out there. I mean, you know, folks like yourself and other engineers that are really thinking about this, there's different ways to do it. But you know, collectively, the solutions that have been out there, whether it's a T track rigid or it's a cable system, they've been out there for quite a while there might be some new ways to make that work a little bit better. David Kozlowsky: [00:08:47] Yeah, I've used a lot of them. I've seen a lot of them and I have a couple of ideas on how I think they should be able to operate, and that's what we're working towards. Peter Koch: [00:08:57] Good deal. Yeah. All right. Let's round back [00:09:00] to the topic for today, which is leading edge fall protection. And so in our last podcast that it kind of came up as a discussion or a brief discussion outside of the recording. And you know, I think leading edge work happens more frequently than people know, and I'm not sure that they understand all the risks involved with it. So I think we'll take time to discuss that. So let's start with the definition of leading edge. What is leading edge work? And then let's talk a little bit more about maybe the differences between how OSHA sees it and how ANSI sees it. David Kozlowsky: [00:09:33] So this is interesting. When we were talking about the topics, you know, you presented it this morning that you were going to ask me about the definition. I go ah man like, I don't really know what the definition is. I should be ready for this question. So I'm going to quit and I'm going to research it. And you know what? The weird thing is I went all through ANSI, and I can't find where ANSI actually gives a definition of leading edge. They talk about everything else. The SRL standard [00:10:00] three fifty nine point fourteen that's out there. They have they don't have any definitions, they refer you back to Z three fifty nine point zero, which is the base standard, and you go through all those definitions in there and they really don't ever give you one. And so you're kind of left to kind of infer on your own what the definition of a leading edge is. So I am going to give you my own definition. This is my opinion. And here it goes. So based on the way they have the testing done and the way the differences in the testing for the two different types of SRLs, actually there's three or four, but the two basically the ones that are made to attach above the D ring and then ones that are made to attach below the D ring. My definition of a leading edge is a two fold test, one you're attaching below your D ring and two the material of the lanyard leg itself of the self retracting lifeline [00:11:00] to any degree bends around another object. So there are many cases where just tying off at your feet does not necessarily introduce a leading edge. So my personal definition is you're tying off at or below the D ring and the leg of the SRL or lanyard is going to bend around another object, whether it just be a little bit or 90 degrees or whatever it ends up being, it's bending around another object. Peter Koch: [00:11:31] I think that's a good definition because it takes into consideration more than just working at an unprotected edge. Like I'm laying down metal decking or I'm doing work on a rooftop someplace, and I'm right next to that particular edge. Or I have to work with  part of my body over the edge because you could set that up where depending on the location of your anchor, where even though I [00:12:00] am working on that leading edge, I might not need something that's specific to leading edge. David Kozlowsky: [00:12:05] So I'm going to add one further test, which I know I said two, but I'm going to make it three now. So in order to be true and again, this is my opinion. But in order to make it true, leading edge what you just mentioned, so the radius of test required and we can get into this in a little bit, but there's a very specific piece of material in a very specific radius in the ANSI test that you need to test a leading edge retractable. And it's what we call in the industry the sharp edge test. So to me, a leading edge should also include a sharp edge. There's many instances where you might meet two of the tests you might be tying off at or below the D ring. It might be bending around something, but that object presents zero risk of actually sawing or cutting the material, which is where the leading edge sharp edge test comes from. So it would need to meet those three tests. [00:13:00] Peter Koch: [00:13:01] So if I think about this in the real world and we're going to take this into industry, right? And I'm the supervisor or the safety manager and I'm doing my job hazard analysis or my risk assessment for that particular day. And I'm trying to choose what type of fall protection I'm going to have. I need to look at where the work is being done, how close to that edge I'm going to be, where my anchor is going to be and not just distance from the edge, but actually location based on the position of the individuals d-ring. That's a really good point that you brought up. What's the material or what is the edge actually look like? David Kozlowsky: [00:13:39] So the test that I came up with, which was any time it's bending around something or over something, this z three fifty nine point one three, which is the lanyard and shock absorbing lanyard standard for ANSI, has already in it. Testing and information for foot level tie off what they call 12 foot free fall [00:14:00] lanyards. And so the idea behind that is four foot level tie off. Well, someone might say, how is it that you can have foot level, but not a leading edge? Well, if you're connecting steel and you have an I-beam and you're connected to it, it's possible that it might be leading edge depending on how big the I-beam is and where the D ring is. But it's common practice when you're tying off with a lanyard to include a D ring extender, so to speak. So what you would want to do is add a D ring extender to the D ring so that no portion of the hardware or webbing on your lanyard would be bent over the IV when you fall, so it would be at the edge. So that would be an example of a 12 foot freefall or a foot level tie off. That's not necessarily a leading edge. And then other tests, you know, the sharp edge there's you know, we worked with a contractor a number of years ago that was working on windmills and you know, the [00:15:00] tops of those are round. They're like. The cells on an airplane engine, so there's really no risk of cutting any of the material. So we kind of got into a discussion with the general contractor about is this really a leading edge? Can you really need that type of equipment or is foot level sufficient, you know, to satisfy the need Peter Koch: [00:15:20] Yeah, so let's qualify that for a little bit, too. So our listeners understand the difference. There are certifications for leading edge fall protection equipment that would meet the tests or at the very least, you know, work for foot level connection and then be robust enough to not be damaged or and continue to work when it's bent over a particular radius and material. David Kozlowsky: [00:15:46] Right. So the lanyard standard 359.13 only has the 12 foot free fall. The test is virtually the same. It's the same two hundred and eighty two pound weight. It really just depends on how [00:16:00] far you allow the weight to fall and then measure the forces. So there's definitely not a sharp edge component to the foot level tie off for regular lanyards. Z359.14 is really the first one to differentiate and introduce a different test for that. So for the performance testing, for dynamic testing, the weights, two hundred and eighty two pounds the same, it's 300 for strength testing, but for performance testing is two hundred and eighty two pounds. And so now what they've done is they've classified self retracting lifelines into what's called Class A and B, which are for overhead tie off. That's anything above your D ring. And then they've created a test for SRL-LE, which is their designation for leading edge the same weight, but you are introducing a five foot free fall now instead of just hanging it from an overhead [00:17:00] point. So you need to introduce a five foot free fall. The distance back from the edge needs to MEMIC the length of the unit you're testing because they want you to test it to a certain percentage of its overall use. And then you drop it over the edge 20 inches away, and then you do a second test at a five foot offset to introduce a sawing effect. So it's the first standard to really kind of give you an actual specific test specifically for that, which is partly the way I came up with my test or my definition of what leading edge is. You know, the idea that it's going to bend over something and be a sharp edge and be a five foot free fall? Peter Koch: [00:17:42] Yeah, right. So if I understand that correctly, going back to the classifications of SRLs, you've got A, B and now you have LE David Kozlowsky: [00:17:53] LE and you have R2, which is four rescue devices that have built in winches. But that's a completely [00:18:00] different thing for what we're talking about. But yes, A B and LE and A and B are overhead, and those basically determine the total fall distance allowed and the average arrest force that's allowed OSHA in ANSI don't ever allow any more than 800 pounds max arrest force, but the average arrest for us class A is twenty four inches total arrest and thirteen hundred and fifty pounds average, and then Class B would be up to fifty four inches and only 900 pounds average arrest force. And then you go to LE and LE has to have the same thirteen hundred and fifty and fifty four inch max. And then it also now again, but it also has to pass the sharp edge test. Peter Koch: [00:18:43] Yeah, stay intact once it connects with the edge. David Kozlowsky: [00:18:46] I forget what the number is, but it does also have to maintain, regular ones is a thousand pounds. I think static after the fall, but I think it's a little less. I can't remember the exact number. It might be like six hundred and fifty pounds or something, but it does [00:19:00] have to pass also a static test after it's arrested the fall. Peter Koch: [00:19:05] It's got to sit there and be able to stand six hundred pounds. David Kozlowsky: [00:19:09] Yeah. You want to be able to have somebody hanging on it for a while and, you know, not risk that it's going to tear the rest of the way through? Peter Koch: [00:19:16] Yeah. Which is a it's a pretty good test. I would want to have that test there if I'm wearing it for sure. David Kozlowsky: [00:19:20] Yeah, sure. Me too, for sure. Peter Koch: [00:19:21] We've talked about it in the testing, but let's talk about that leading edge and like specifically, what are the additional hazards that are there? You talked about what it needs to withstand, but when I'm looking at the when I'm looking at the edge and I'm trying to determine what type of SRL or what type of lanyard you're going to use, what are the hazards, what are the dangers there for leading edge? David Kozlowsky: [00:19:45] Well, there's multiple dangers in some of these MEMIC foot level tie off and then some of them are new ones that are introduced with leading edge. But when you're doing fall calculations, I mean, the first thing you need to take into consideration is the [00:20:00] additional five foot free fall most. People don't realize that if you're tied back from the leading edge, even if you're tied off at your d-ring height, so even if you're technically tied off at or above your d-ring, but let's say it's four feet back from the edge of a roof, you don't realize it, but the retractable is probably not going to start arresting the fall until your d-ring is passed past the leading edge. So you're going to fall off the side when you're d-ring passes. That's when the rate of extension is going to increase enough to actually arrest the fall. So that's why they tested it five feet. So you need to take into consideration that you need to add that five feet of fall clearance to virtually every chart that you have. So Leading Edge introduces that extra fall clearance. And in some cases, like I said, even if you're tied off at or above your d-ring, if it's a leading edge, you need to add that five feet you can't count it as [00:21:00] an overhead tie off. Peter Koch: [00:21:01] Right, that makes sense. If you're going to have a fixed anchor and you're going to be traveling horizontally on whatever surface you're going to be. How far are you traveling? So if I fall off the edge with a 25 foot, you know, I've got a 30 foot SRL or and I'm traveling 10 or 15 foot horizontally beyond the center of that anchor point. How far am I actually going to fall before it catches me. David Kozlowsky: [00:21:27] Even if you're even if you're dead perpendicular to the anchor, even if you take out the pendulum effect, if you're dead perpendicular to the anchor, if you imagine in your mind, you know the edge and your, you know, your line comes in even horizontally. The increase horizontal to the angle is so little that the rate of extension is probably not going to catch up and actually start locking until your D ring actually passes and it goes over the side, then [00:22:00] it becomes a line pull. So now the rate is the same of your falling and the extension, and that's when it's going to lock. It's not going to lock before. So that's why it's important even when you're at or above. Even if you're dead perpendicular, you need to add that five feet. So then the other thing, of course, you touched on was the pendulum. I mean, there's always the possibility of the swing fall. So you need to calculate that into your fall clearance chart, the extra payout because you're falling further. So you're going to get more energy absorber extension than if you're just falling overhead. And then the and this is the most important thing is the biggest hazard is the actual edge itself. So, you know, the sharp edge component that I told you, that's that kind of third test of leading edges. The test is a zero point zero five radius. They have a very specific radius because [00:23:00] they say that's what structural steel is. Peter Koch: [00:23:01] So put that put that into context that someone can wrap their head around if they don't know what point zero five is. David Kozlowsky: [00:23:08] Is five one thousandths of an inch. I mean, it's Peter Koch: [00:23:12] So that's like, like pencil lead. David Kozlowsky: [00:23:14] Yeah, right? Yeah. It's like, really, really. It's basically a sharp edge. I mean, so you know, not just the straight fall, but especially if you're not perfectly perpendicular, there's going to be a sawing effect. And that's the most dangerous part of leading edge. And why they do. The sharp edge test is if your five or 10 feet off of perpendicular and you fall, you know, from other studies of fall protection that you're going to run along the edge until you're lanyard, you're just perpendicular to your tie off point. And however far that is, is how far it's going to saw that webbing or the cable. And I've seen tests where even cable can get cut if the edge is sharp enough.  Especially if it's, you know, steel. So [00:24:00] that's really the most dangerous thing is, you know, that sawing effect that you might have. So you want to take that into consideration in each application and in the material that you're using, whether you're using a cable lanyard, a web lanyard, you know, as a shock absorber or not. Peter Koch: [00:24:15] Sure. And it makes sense. You know, you think about the maximum amount of force that OSHA allows or ANSI allows is 1800 pounds. You can't put 1800 pounds of force between your hands pulling a piece of rope. But if you pull a piece of rope tight between your hands and touch a sharp knife to it, it's going to part. David Kozlowsky: [00:24:35] It's going to part. Peter Koch: [00:24:36] So put 1800 pounds on that and then roll that over a sharp edge. There's going to be some damage if it's not designed for it. David Kozlowsky: [00:24:43] Right. Exactly. So that's why I introduce that, because not every edge is sharp enough to do that. I mean, certainly steel is if you're doing roofing, you know, you might have metal decking or metal roofing. I mean, certainly that can be a knife edge sometimes. [00:25:00] So certainly that would be a sharp edge. Concrete can be a sharp edge, especially if it's a Web lanyard, maybe not so much for cable, but certainly possible, you know, if it's a soft edge. If you're talking, you know, like we talked about the wind towers or, you know, if you're doing wood construction and you get two by dimensional lumber, I don't know if I would say that there would be a risk of cutting, you know, especially a cable lanyard. So maybe just foot level would be sufficient for that. Again, this is my opinion. Somebody else might disagree with me, but that's my opinion. That's the way I look at it. Peter Koch: [00:25:34] And it makes sense. It's logical to think that, but I think the key point to take away as you're listening to this is you've got to do your own. I won't say research, but you have to evaluate the fall hazard that you have. So it's not just the distance between the anchor and the ground anymore. There's more information that you need to gain about the situation before you can make a choice on material and [00:26:00] the type of fall protection system that you're going to have. David Kozlowsky: [00:26:02] So, you know, that's part of the job of the safety manager of whoever is for whatever construction company or whatever company that you work for. And I think especially nowadays, it seems like safety managers probably spend all their time dealing with COVID and stuff and less time with fall protection. But, you know, I liken it to a lot of us here have taken the rigging and signal test for cranes because we do contracting work and we need to be qualified by and CEO to rig or signal a crane. So we've all taken the classes in, you know, the studies that you do for the rigging part of it, it's pretty in depth. There's a lot of calculations. If you're not going to preplan it, it's difficult if you're going to just show up on site and say, All right, what do I need? And you can start to calculate sling angles and how much does this way and how long are the straps and, you know, stuff like that. So it gets pretty complex. And, you know, I don't think a lot [00:27:00] of safety people sometimes realize that that's your job, really. If you're not, you know, you might not be rigging a pallet, but your job is the safety manager is to analyze the risk. And you know, the guys that are on the field don't have the time to stop and spend two hours figuring out what they need. Your job is to kind of, you know, survey the area and kind of look ahead of time and see and make all those calculations. You're the one who wants to do all the fall clearance. You want to analyze the risk. You want to look at the edge, see if it's sharp. It's really your job to go in and perform all those fall clearance calculations and everything that you need to do, tell the people on site this is what you need to do to operate it safely. And so that's an important task. Peter Koch: [00:27:48] It's a really important task. And I think especially in some smaller companies that might not have a dedicated risk manager or a safety coordinator on site with them all the time. You [00:28:00] might be foreman or a supervisor that has those safety responsibilities. So your company is going to purchase fall protection equipment and you're going to have it at the shop, you're going to have it in the truck, whatever that is. And then you're going to get to the area and you're going to try to apply whatever you have to, whatever that scenario is. And since, well, especially since talking to you, but in my experience, having done a lot of fall protection training and work at height, not every fall protection solution is functional for the scenario that you're going to come and come encounter with. So just like you said, if you do it ahead of time, you can send the team with the right tool. If you don't send them what the right tool they're going to use, whatever tool that you have. David Kozlowsky: [00:28:51] So a job hazard analysis, we all hate them. I've filled out a million of them. It's a lot of work sometimes, especially for a small contractor like [00:29:00] us. We also don't have a dedicated safety person, that's all they do all day long. So it's extra work for me or for the foreman. But you know, it's something that you complain about, but it's definitely needed. It's definitely that you catch a lot of things that you might not have considered if you take the time to do it ahead of time. And this is one of those things the fall clearance, the edge, the proper equipment and what you need definitely take the time to analyze each situation ahead of time. Peter Koch: [00:29:31] Yeah, it's a great idea, and you can fairly easily I won't call it easy, but you can set yourself up for success by having the questions asked when you're setting up the job, when you are bidding the job. So as you start to bid the job and you know you're going to be working at height, you're building a roof, you're building deck and you're doing whatever that is. Consider the plans. Where are you going to be? Where is your anchor point going to be? What's the material that [00:30:00] you have the potential to fall off of? Yeah. If I can't put a guardrail in, then I need to start looking at these different scenarios. So, you know, if you get to that part in the flow chart where it says, yes, I'm leading edge, it changes the fall protection equipment that you have to bring with you. David Kozlowsky: [00:30:16] And that happens all the time, Peter. That's not a that's not as rare of a scenario as you would think is, you know, XYZ contractor is calling saying, Oh man, I need all this stuff for this. Like, I didn't put this in the job. I didn't know I needed it. And you know, the safety officer for the general contractor is going around saying, No, you can't do this until you have the right equipment. And so that it does happen a lot. Peter Koch: [00:30:40] Yeah, yeah. Totally changes that. You know, we've talked about the relationship between safety, quality and productivity. And even there, like if I can plan for safety ahead of time, it totally changes my productivity because the scenario that you just described where the GC safety guy is saying, I'm sorry, Pete's [00:31:00] contractor, you can't do this unless you have this in place. And now he's got another bill that he's got to come up with, and it's time for you to. I mean, it might even be a custom solution, and that's not something that you can say, Oh yeah, I'll have it shipped to you tomorrow. That's not going to function. David Kozlowsky: [00:31:15] No, and it's certainly going to take a chunk out of, you know, whatever they budgeted for, you know, materials and expenses for the job. Peter Koch: [00:31:22] Profits get a little bit tight that way. David Kozlowsky: [00:31:25] Yeah, if you're going to be working at height, I think if you're a contractor that does any kind of work at height, I mean, you should be spending the time to analyze the job ahead of time before you do something like that to make sure you either have what you need or you factor in some budget money to, you know, to obtain what you need. Peter Koch: [00:31:46] Yeah to see it. You know, you might not know it happens. You might be planning for a job that was described to you X and you get on the job. And all of a sudden it's Z and you have to be agile in your adaptation to whatever's there. [00:32:00] But having worked with hundreds of different teams on the ground where you know their supervisor or manager or the safety guy is not there and we're talking to them about fall protection, and so what about this particular hazard or why are you using this solution in this scenario? And the answer is more times than not is it's all we have, right? Like, I've got a harness and I've got a six foot lanyard, and they might even they might not even have a large enough hook on the end of it to tie in to whatever anchor they're supposed to. So they're tying back to the lanyard and they're changing the dynamics of that particular fall protection solution. David Kozlowsky: [00:32:40] Yeah. And that's one of the things that I can say about the culture of fall protection that is definitely changed in the last, you know, 10 or 15 years is that if you're going to do work for any larger contractor, you're going to have your ducks in a row or you're not going to be able to work on site. So I could see that happening in [00:33:00] smaller jobs where, you know, you might be the general contractor and you're just there doing a little job for a customer. But if you're on any, any larger site, that's not going to happen. And it's, you know, in some ways, it's actually it's actually a help. I mean, if you don't have a safety person on site and as much as you might want to not like the, you know, intrusion or the extra cost, you basically just got, you know, free help from, you know, probably a pretty good safety person, you know, telling you what you need. Peter Koch: [00:33:32] They're great. They are truly a great resource. David Kozlowsky: [00:33:34] A good one is a great resource. A good one is, yeah, definitely qualifier. Peter Koch: [00:33:39] Good one is a good resource, right? Absolutely. And you know, so let's take this out of the construction environment for a moment, because they're not the only industry that has fall protection requirements, even though the threshold is different. We talked about this in previous podcasts. Six foot four construction as the general threshold and then four foot four general industry. Yeah, you [00:34:00] get to some maintenance guys that are not doing construction, they're doing maintenance work and they might not be able to have guardrails in a particular situation, but they might actually have a leading edge scenario where a fall could put them at risk of damaging or severing that lifeline. David Kozlowsky: [00:34:18] I have run into this quite a few times, and the unfortunate thing with general industry with the four foot rule is that a lot of people want to quickly go to the fall protection because it's less expensive than guardrails. The problem is, it is virtually impossible to arrest a fall on a four foot height at a leading edge. As I told you, it's five feet to the d-ring to begin with, so you're 100 percent going to hit the floor before the retractable even starts locking up and arresting the fall. It's just impossible. So in those situations, it's a scenario that just kind of can't exist. You'd sometimes just have to tell people, Listen, you [00:35:00] need to be further up the hierarchy. You need to prevent the fall rather than try to arrest it in this particular situation. And even that's somewhat true, even for overhead. I mean, even if you have the perfect scenario of an overhead retractable perfectly over where you're working, you have all the right equipment and it's only four feet to the next level. Arresting a person before you contact the floor is going to be extremely difficult. So you definitely see less leading edge issues in industry. But it's not unheard of because we've run into many applications where you have like an open sided mezzanine. You're loading material to a, you know, a second floor mezzanine and someone has to remove the guardrail in order to get material up there. We run into that all the time. That's a classic situation for a potential leading edge and especially a sharp edge. Peter Koch: [00:35:52] Yeah, truly, truly about that. That's a great scenario. I think about maintenance guys in the hotel industry that are, you know, [00:36:00] going to different areas and having to do some repairs that are going to be exposed to those fall hazards. There's plenty of different scenarios that your traditional, you know, fall protection in a bucket. It's not going to be what you want to send your guy with, right? And so that preplanning is huge. So if you are going to calculate the fall distance and you've explained this somewhat. But if we're going to look at this from a leading edge perspective with a SRL and I needed it to deal with the fall clearance, let's see. I've got maybe it's 10 feet from the work platform to the ground and I've got my anchor set right at D-ring height. So let's call it five feet off the deck. So thinking that through. How would I calculate whether or not I am using the right tool for that scenario? David Kozlowsky: [00:36:54] Well, the general accepted industry standard is you want to maintain [00:37:00] try to maintain a two foot safety factor, if you can. So you need to try to arrest that fall basically, if it's 10 feet within eight feet and that starts getting really challenging because depending on where you are, you might need to start doing some trigonometry to figure out the length of the hypotenuse and how much if you fall, if you're 10 feet off center, once you hit the edge, how much webbing is over the edge and what's the difference in the hypotenuse between the offset center and the perpendicular center? So even when it locks up how much additional webbing, how much travel from the retractable? Is it going to be twenty four inches? Is it going to be fifty four inches? You know, you need to take and those are things that you can, you know, you can use the manufacturer's information to help you calculate. I can't do it off the top of my head. If you ask me to do one, I can't. It's too complicated. Yeah, on my laptop, I created a calculator. [00:38:00] If you give me a minute to get it out, I could probably do one for you. But there's too many. There's too many trigonometric calculations to actually figuring out. And I've also custom tailored my fall calculator to take into consideration actual fall distances from our SRLs, rather than just the published maximums. So like a class, a retractable can extend up to fifty four inches, but they very rarely do all the way. Fifty four would be a worst case scenario a full five foot free fall, a full three hundred pound, three hundred and ten pound worker. All of these things. And if you're only one hundred and eighty pounds and you don't fall quite the full five feet, then you know the number would be less the payout. Right. So besides all the trigonometric functions, I have an actual calculator that calculates the estimated actual payout, so it's way too much to just do right off the [00:39:00] top of my head. Peter Koch: [00:39:01] No I think it's a great answer because normally people, I got that this, this and that and boom, it's all set. Yeah, that's not always the answer. David Kozlowsky: [00:39:08] Well, if you want to take if you want to be safe and you want to take the standard things you can like, if you're standing on the edge of something and you're tied off overhead, then you know you can take the from foot level. You can take the, you know, the total arrest distance plus the total payout, plus the flex in the, you know, the D ring and the harness and all that. You can add all those up and just come up with a general number. The problem is if you don't have 18 to 20 feet of fall clearance and it's getting a little tighter, then you need to start getting a little bit more in depth in your calculations to make sure you, you know you cover it. Peter Koch: [00:39:44] No, I think that's a great point, too, because most people will take those standards and say, this is going to work normally. I don't know. I don't see very many times where the worker, the guy who's actually got to use the fall protection [00:40:00] stuff that he's given by the company. He works at those particular standards like so great when we set it up. You might have had 15 feet of fall clearance, but now because of stuff that's parked below the edge, now we don't have 15 feet of fall clearance. We've got eight feet of fall clearance or 10 feet of fall clearance. And all of a sudden it changes whether or not that piece of equipment is going to work. And great, I've got one anchor point, but I've got, you know, 15, 16, 18 feet to either side of the anchor for the guy to do his job. And that changes. What he can do. David Kozlowsky: [00:40:36] And this goes back to what I said at the beginning about when you're calculating those, it's important to add five feet to pretty much anything you calculate with leading edge. If you're tied off behind you because you're going to fall that five feet to the D ring before the system even starts doing what it's supposed to be doing. So that's why I went back to, you know, if it's four foot if it's, you know, general industry [00:41:00] and you have to add five feet to every fall to begin with, Peter Koch: [00:41:02] That math doesn't work, David Kozlowsky: [00:41:03] Doesn't add up, does it? Peter Koch: [00:41:04] You don't even need your laptop for that. David Kozlowsky: [00:41:06] No I don't. That's right. Peter Koch: [00:41:09] So let's talk a little bit more about the kind of the setup because we discussed this and this was sort of a revelation to me. I hadn't thought of it this way, but just because your anchor might actually be at your D ring height or above doesn't mean it's not leading edge because there's a relationship between where the edge is and the distance back from the edge for the anchor. Because you're going to, you might have a sharp enough radius across that sharp edge, depending on how far back it is. Talk a little bit about that and how that might factor in this might be a surprise to people. David Kozlowsky: [00:41:46] So basically, what you're looking at is depending on the well, going back to what I said originally about how if it's in my opinion, if it's bending over something and it's a sharp edge and you're tied back from the edge, so it's bending [00:42:00] over something, then you're basically technically a leading edge. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be the maximum freefall. Certainly, the maximum calculated freefall would be, say, a roof anchor at your feet. Back from the edge, you're going to fall the full five feet. If you're tied off, you know, above your head back from the edge, you might not fall the full five feet you might actually get. And this is the relationship to everything centrifugal bass. So an SRL locks up based on pulls and springs. It's all engineered so that a certain number of feet per minute that the cable comes out. It's going to lock those things. So if it's not traveling fast enough, then it's not going to lock. This kind of even goes back to our last discussion. We were talking about low sloped roofs, and I said there's some discussion about I kind of put myself out there by saying you could use a retractable on a low sloped roof, but some people say you can't because what happens is if you're sliding down the roof, you're technically [00:43:00] in a free fall technically, but you're sliding slow, right? You're not really free falling, so to speak, so you could slide all the way down the roof and your retractable might never lock up. So the same concept applies to this. If you're tied off, say above your D ring behind you a little bit and the ultimate angle that's going to come over that edge. If it's not very much, it's going to pay out quicker. So it's going to lock up quicker than, if you're, say, tied off at your feet. But again, that's a calculation for the for the laptop. I would say if you're at a leading edge to be safe, if you just use the five feet to begin with, then you're going to be safe. I mean, that would be something you might want to save for a very specific application where you're really trying to get some work done and you know, it's a tight fall clearance. Peter Koch: [00:43:53] Sure and even like the choice between getting something that might be leading edge certified as opposed to something that's more general [00:44:00] certified for a SRL, just because I'm tied off at my d-ring or above and back, you know, the further back you are as I for the anchor point, if I've got, you know, 10 or 15 feet of distance between my anchor and the leading edge, that's going to be a fairly sharp radius. As you think about. I've got five feet of height, 15 feet below. There's your hypotenuse calculation that you come in from there all the way to the leading edge. It's going to be a fairly sharp radius as you come across. Rather than if you had your anchor almost directly above that leading edge where you're not going to have much there. David Kozlowsky: [00:44:36] You're not going to have that. In fact, you can even get further into this if you want to. Some people that like to have brainy discussions about this stuff would even say that retractable can only, the springs will only retract the cable at a certain number of feet per second to depending on the retractable. So some people would also say that if you're tied off like on a roof anchor and your way far below the D ring, [00:45:00] that. There's a possibility that you would even have more than five feet because if you accidentally it's different if you roll off the edge or if you step off the edge. So if you literally just take a step off the edge and you're instantly free falling, there's a possibility that you could fall faster than the retractable can pull the cable back in. So you're going to actually have loose cable at the edge. So you're not only going to go the five feet, but you might go an extra foot. You know the loose cable? Peter Koch: [00:45:29] Yeah. So that really goes into that industry standard of that two foot safety factors critical in that consideration, David Kozlowsky: [00:45:38] And that's why you do it. Yeah, definitely. Because they're I mean, it's definitely a science and it's reasonably exact science. But and there's just so many variables. It's hard. I mean, even the friction of the edge can change it. How you know how easy it is for it to slip over the side. Obviously, the weight of the person can change it. The type of fall can change it. If you're backing up and [00:46:00] literally step off the edge of a roof or something, that's going to be a totally different dynamic than if you're kneeling down and, you know, working, or if you slip and fall down and kind of roll off the side. Or, you know, if you bump into somebody and you both fall off the side, I mean, that can affect things. So that's yeah, that's why the safety factor, there's just too many variables, Peter Koch: [00:46:22] Tons of variables. I always tell people when we get to do those fall calculations and just the basic math, not the laptop math. David Kozlowsky: [00:46:30] Can't go wrong with that. Peter Koch: [00:46:31] Yeah, just to kind of look at that and look at the standards and you get to that end where you put the safety factor in and they all look at me and go, Why would I want to do that? It's like because your math isn't as good as you think it is. And your eye is not as good as you're estimating, you think or in estimating as you think it is, so have the safety factor in the event that you make a mistake. But here, when we consider that you might not have made a mistake at all in the calculation, the mistake happens in the relation or not the relationship, but the design of [00:47:00] the equipment and the use of the equipment. David Kozlowsky: [00:47:02] Well, even just the equipment itself. I mean, you know, a retractable and we have pretty exacting standards of, you know, the torque on the brake nut when we reassemble one or when we repair one. But you know, there's a range that you're allowed to be in. So if you're on the tighter end or the looser end of that range, I mean, that could make a few inches. It doesn't sound like much, but a few inches could turn into more than that, depending on how far the fall was and stuff. So, you know, there's all these little things that you just can't take into consideration. So the safety factor is there to cover that. Peter Koch: [00:47:37] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so that's a good point. You manufacture SRLs and you manufacture lanyards and things like that. So what besides or in order to get the LE certification, what's the material difference is like what? I know it can't break, but what kind of material goes into making SRL? That's LE certified. David Kozlowsky: [00:47:59] Well the cable ones [00:48:00] are really no different as far as the actual guts of the unit. Based on the older overhead style, it's the same size cable, basically same drum, same springs, same pulls because a lot of the tests are still the same. The static tests and a lot of those retraction tests and everything are all the same, whether it's overhead or it's LE. So the difference mainly being there's going to be a slight adjustment on the brake tension. So there's going to be a little bit of an adjustment. So an overhead one and an LE one is going to have a slight adjustment in that the nut that actually adjust the brake tension and then you're going to also have on any newer retractable as you're going to have a shock pack on that. So the newer the 2014 standard removed, the old standard used to say that if you could pass the leading edge test without an external shock pack, then you could do it that way. [00:49:00] The new standard basically took that exemption out, so it basically says a leading edge retractable must have a shock pack unless it's designed to be worn on the body, so the movable braking portion of it is on you instead of at the connection point. So most larger, retractable is anything bigger than, you know, like a little six foot job is going to. They're going to have an additional shock pack because the braking mechanism is still in the unit. So there's that difference. And then, like I said, the shock, that's basically the main two differences. Peter Koch: [00:49:33] Ok, and then can you have fabric? That would that would get certified? David Kozlowsky: [00:49:38] If you can get it to pass the test, you can. Our weight our six foot unit is the mini six foot mini is. We tried to get that to pass leading edge. It's got dynamo webbing, which is very strong and very abrasion resistant, couldn't quite get it. It's really hard that sawing test [00:50:00] is the hardest one, so we passed foot level tie off with that no problem. We actually passed the straight line leading edge, sharp edge test with it. No problem. But as soon as you introduce the five foot offset and have that sawing motion, it does. It cuts the webbing and it doesn't it won't hold up. So getting a fabric one to withstand the leading edge test in a bigger unit, you probably could do it because the webbing is much thicker and much stronger. But those little six foot jobs, they're only like three quarter inch wide webbing and it's real thin. So you're trying to put it in a compact housing. So there's just not room for a beefy enough material. But so most, most everything leading edge is cable. Yeah, I mean, if you could get it to pass, you could. There's no reason why you couldn't. Peter Koch: [00:50:52] Yeah, that makes sense. Again, you're balancing that safety, quality productivity like I can. I can make it if I can get a big enough, beefy [00:51:00] enough, sturdy enough piece of webbing. But then I'm not going to want to wear that on my back all the time. Or, you know, have it attached someplace else too. David Kozlowsky: [00:51:09] Then users are saying, Well, everybody else is only this big and you know, yours weighs this much and it's, you know, then like you said, productivity, right? Peter Koch: [00:51:18] It just goes back to the plan, right? In order to have the right fall protection equipment, that's not going to break the budget, that's going to be applicable. You have to have a plan, you have to know what the exposures are. And I, you know, we talk about that almost every time we have a conversation about fall prevention and fall protection, but it's the crucial part of any process of thinking about fall protection. You got to know what you're protecting from. David Kozlowsky: [00:51:47] It's a crucial part of any process. I mean, how productive. Let's take fall protection out of it. Let's say you're working on a piece of machinery. How productive is it to repair that piece of machinery if you just [00:52:00] show up and then it's 14 trips back to the toolbox and four trips to the parts store to, you know, get parts and, you know, a 10 minute job might take you all day. I mean, it's no different than safety. It's just you need to start applying that same principle where any job, whether it's safety or maintenance or anything, is far more productive and efficient if you figure out what you need ahead of time and hopefully have it on hand. Peter Koch: [00:52:26] Yeah, we I think we get spoiled sometimes in our sort of instant gratification society when we think, Oh yeah, I can just get that it's not a big deal, but like talk to the guys that maintain the wind turbines and you're 600 feet in the air and you drop a wrench or you don't bring the right size socket with you. It's a half a day project sometimes to get all the way back down and get all the way back up. David Kozlowsky: [00:52:50] If you're at the, you know you're on the roof of a, you know, an older building, maybe it doesn't have an elevator and you're going up there to service HVAC equipment and you and [00:53:00] I forgot the belt, you know, and it's 12 stories back down to the van twelve stories back up. I mean, might take you 45 minutes because you forgot that belt. You know, it's those kind of things can be applied to safety, too. If you try to plan ahead and you have the equipment hopefully on hand that you need, then you're going to be way more productive, just like any other task. Peter Koch: [00:53:20] Yeah. And I think a good point, too, like if you don't have that dedicated safety person for your company, which fine, then use the people that are on the right on the front line and start getting information from them about how it works, how it applies. Does this tool that we have actually function for you, some of it, they're not going to know, like a lot of the qualifications and certifications and the risk assessment part they might not understand, but David Kozlowsky: [00:53:48] That's where people can help. We can help them, though that's the kind of thing that, you know, if you're going into an industrial or commercial application like you're talking about, I mean, you might your safety [00:54:00] person might be an industrial hygienist or something. Or maybe they're really good at some things, but all of a sudden they've thrown at them a fall situation and they're not sure. I mean, that's where we come in. I mean, if they don't know, they have us to call and we're the experts. Peter Koch: [00:54:16] Yeah, that's a great point. Google can get you quite far, but really getting to the expert person is going to take you a lot farther, a lot faster. And people always think, Oh, it's going to just cost so much money. I have to incorporate this expert person to come in and do that in the long run. You were talking about that before. You might be able to give information that will allow someone to get a smaller, more efficient unit for their team rather than having to go with a big gummy one. Because you're you only have information that's going to be the max standard for evaluation. David Kozlowsky: [00:54:55] We're always cognizant of that and we always go in and try to lead [00:55:00] off with. Whatever we feel would be the most economically feasible for the customer, and we never go in and try to oversell them something. I mean, sometimes that's the only thing you can use and that's just the way it is. But there's many times where we have been in and we've come out and the customer said, Wow, I thought that was going to, you know, cost me a lot more. Thanks for walking us through this. Peter Koch: [00:55:21] Cool. That's really cool. And you know, I'll, you know, I'll look at that as well and think, Geez, like there's been times where just with my own expertise, I don't have all the information that I can. I can correctly or efficiently advise a policyholder. So even myself, as an expert within the safety industry, you have to look to somebody who has a lot more experience within fall protection because I don't have the fall calculator that you've developed through years of experience and then testing your own equipment to get certifications through ANSI to make sure that it meets [00:56:00] the standard that's functional. David Kozlowsky: [00:56:02] Yeah. And even with that, I've said before, I mean, way back to the first one, you ask me, you know, what's one thing you wish you could tell younger you? It's like, it's OK to not know everything. I still don't. I'll say it again. I mean, when you when you gave me the list of topics, I had to go on and look up definitions because I'm like, Oh man, I never thought of that. It's just one of those things where if you know where to find things, or if you know people that can help you, that you can, you know, along in the process, then that's everything really. You don't have to know everything I don't Peter Koch: [00:56:32] No, and you can't. There's so much information out there and it's a blessing and a trap, right? Because there's so much information out there. It also means that there's a lot of misinformation out there. And as I was doing some research and investigation for this particular episode, you can Google leading edge fall protection and there's a zillion Google hits that come up for that. So which one do you choose? David Kozlowsky: [00:56:57] Well, there's no substitute [00:57:00] for actually on site, like, that's why I said, if you're on site, you can google it all you want. You can see all the lanyards there are and all the SRLs, and you can see all that equipment. But you know somebody on a Google search probably not going to be able to look at your particular situation and say, I would recommend that you use this. And that's where you just you just can't substitute like somebody in person, you know, actually helping you and looking at it. Peter Koch: [00:57:27] Yeah, that's a great that's a great example. I just made me think, if you know, if I am a contractor or I've got a new job that I'm trying to bid out and I need new fall protection equipment for it, you know, many times you're just going to go to the website. And all right, so this is what I've purchased before. I purchased this, before I purchased that before. And you might talk to the sales guy, maybe at the website and you're going to give them a little bit of information. He's going to tell you what he thinks. What we've talked about here is [00:58:00] you need more specifics. David Kozlowsky: [00:58:01] Yeah, a lot more specifics. We've I've not gotten a lot of sales because I wouldn't sell somebody something that I knew wasn't going to work. And then, you know, I don't want to drop names, but they'll go on their favorite, you know, catalog du jour with all of the industrial and safety gear in it. And they'll just buy what they want and then they'll call it good. And we won't do that. I mean, I'm not going to sell somebody something if it's not going to work. And leading edge is the perfect time to talk about that because leading edge is can be potentially far more dangerous than any other type of fall protection, both in terms of fall clearance and in terms of what happens during the fall. And when you have that false sense of security, you think you're safe because you're tied off and then God forbid, it breaks, you know, when you're hopefully you're safe and you're not. Peter Koch: [00:58:55] Yeah, there's some pretty dramatic videos out there around [00:59:00] leading edge equipment testing and the difference between something rated for leading edge, whether it's cable or fabric in just watching the instantaneous parting of that lanyard as it comes over the edge. And, you know, as the guy who is maybe wearing that equipment to think, alright, so this is going to protect me and that's, you know, as a manager, if you hand someone some PPE in the back of their head, they're thinking, OK, this is going to keep me safe. Well, if it's not the right thing and they do have a leading edge fall and it's not appropriate for leading edge, the thing in their mind of I'm going to be hanging here, parts when the cable parts David Kozlowsky: [00:59:42] Back early on in my days at safe approach back around the late nineties. We had a situation where a customer had a couple of our stations and a cable and a lanyard, and they were tied off doing what they were supposed to be doing work in a leading [01:00:00] edge, doing decking. And so the worker stepped off the edge and fell in the stanchions, and the cable and the lanyard did everything they were supposed to do. He got caught and everything worked. He was hanging sixty feet off the ground. And because there was the way he fell and because there was a slight slope because they were on the top level, one of the sheets of roofing continued to slide off the roof, went off the roof, sliced right through his lanyard, and he fell. And this is after the fall. So here's a guy who is here and he thinks he's saved because the product did its job and then a sheet comes off and slices through the lanyard, and that was before they really had leading edge or anything like that. And honestly, that was an accident that would have been hard to prevent. I mean, that wasn't a leading edge situation. It wasn't a, you know, a situation where [01:01:00] he was using the wrong equipment. It was just that one in a million chance. And so, you know, things happen less than one in a million chance. Things happen and you want to make sure you have the right gear. And leading edge is it's no joke. I mean, it can happen to you. Peter Koch: [01:01:16] Yeah, it very much can. And then going back to that, the conversation about job hazard analysis like a comprehensive job hazard analysis would take into consideration where is your material? How is it being secured? What's the pitch? What's the potential? And then all that information can be if you bring it to someone who's not just picking something out of a catalog can start to look and say, Well, hey, you know, if you're not going to secure this, if there's areas where you can't do this, you might want to have something else in the event that all these factors come together. In a worst case scenario. David Kozlowsky: [01:01:55] Yeah, exactly. It happens. Peter Koch: [01:01:56] Yeah, right on. Is there anything else that you want to tell us about for [01:02:00] Leading Edge that we haven't talked about is anything that I didn't ask you David Kozlowsky: [01:02:03] Off the top of my head. I can't think of anything. I think we covered it pretty well. Peter Koch: [01:02:07] We did pretty well. I think today. David Kozlowsky: [01:02:08] Don't want people to get bored either. Peter Koch: [01:02:10] No, no, no. And I guess one last plug that I have about reaching out to experts that there is a there's a definite benefit to recognizing that you don't always have all the information and then reaching out to an expert to engage them about a particular product or scenario or situation. And I can't stress that enough that Google is great, but it doesn't always give you all the information. And in all of the research that I did around leading edge the conversation around the five foot part, the additional five feet never was in any of it. And so that's I mean, just that piece changes your fall calculation, changes a lot of what equipment you might choose for [01:03:00] the particular scenario. David Kozlowsky: [01:03:01] Yeah, and that's where an expert can help. Peter Koch: [01:03:04] Yeah, absolutely. Reach out, right? David Kozlowsky: [01:03:06] Try to be careful not to plug myself too much here. Peter Koch: [01:03:09] You've I think you've done a great job and safe approach is definitely a place where people can reach out to their local right here in Maine. But there is also other experts that are out there that have a lot of expertise in this. You know, they might not be manufacturers, right? They might be salespeople, but there are other people that have a ton of experience. Just make sure that you reach out to the expert with questions. David Kozlowsky: [01:03:31] And I mean, that's something that we can help with, too. I mean, if you have questions that we don't, I mean, I have a pretty good knowledge base of people that I know if you need training or you need a specific type of information that I don't have, I mean, I do know people that do this for a living that do training and consulting and whatever. So just reaching out to me doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to try to sell you something somebody else can help you. I might be able to help you, you know, find that person that can [01:04:00] do what you need. Peter Koch: [01:04:01] Point you in the right direction. Yeah, and last point, that's another really good point that we can't overlook is the training part of this. So whatever fall protection that you have, your people need to have training around the systems and the exposures and the design and limitations and inspection and maintenance before they're exposed to the hazard, right? And so it's a critical part that they have all that because just because they have it doesn't mean that they know how to use it. David Kozlowsky: [01:04:28] Most of the accidents that happen with fall protection are just because it's being used incorrectly or they're using the wrong equipment. Peter Koch: [01:04:39] Yeah it's always interesting to me doing training with folks that maybe have not been exposed to fall protection equipment before and putting a harness on how do you know, how does it get sized appropriately? How tight is tight? How comfortable is comfortable? What side does the D ring go on? And then w [01:05:00]hat end of the lanyard do you connect to the anchor and what end of the land do you connect to the harness? And some are pretty obvious. You know, you get a dual leg lanyard. It's relatively easy to figure out what you connect. However, it's not always that easy, David Kozlowsky: [01:05:16] Depending on the type of the lanyard. It's not even always that easy. And then you have the factor of people just, you know, they want to get the job done too. So they'll take shortcuts or do things that they shouldn't because they just want to get it done and move on. But you know, and it's to your benefit to do that training. I mean, if something happens and somebody has an accident, I mean, it's your employee. So you're going to you're going to want to be able to show that you train that person on how to use the equipment. If not, then you know, you might be opening yourself up to additional liability, certainly. Peter Koch: [01:05:50] And then I was at a job site. This is fairly recently actually, and we're looking across to a property that wasn't [01:06:00] owned by the policyholder and was not being built by a policyholder and on the roof. They were actually replacing the roof and they were removing sheathing and watched the guy who was moving his self retracting lifeline from anchor to anchor. And the way he was doing it was fairly interesting. You know, he took his big self retracting lifeline, which was connected to his harness. Oh yeah. And then just on clipping walking across the ridge of the roof and clipping into the next set into the next piece. So way too many things going wrong there to even start. David Kozlowsky: [01:06:38] That certainly wouldn't be considered 100 percent tie off application. Peter Koch: [01:06:43] Right? That would be the first thing. David Kozlowsky: [01:06:45] Yeah, yeah, there's better ways to do that. A little bit of help from an outside person could help you figure that out. Peter Koch: [01:06:53] Absolutely. Hey, so just an interesting question that popped into my head. So what happens if I take a [01:07:00] self retracting lifeline and install it the opposite way around? So instead of attaching the hook to me and the CRL to the anchor, what happens if I switch it around? David Kozlowsky: [01:07:09] Absolutely nothing. They work both ways. Yeah. In fact, in a lot of ways, it's probably safer to have it attached to you, especially in a leading edge where one of the reasons for the additional shock pack is the braking mechanism being on the other side of the sharp edge. But the bottom line is going to be the manufacturer. I mean, we allow it. It's there's no reason why you can't. It's not unsafe other than just being heavy and potentially clunking you in the head if you do fall. But if the manufacturer, you need to follow the manufacturer's recommendations. So if they don't want you to do it, then whatever your piece of equipment is, you shouldn't do it. And that's I like, try to stress that each time we talk is manufacturer, follow their recommendations because they're really the one that OSHA's going to fall back to. [01:08:00] Peter Koch: [01:08:01] Perfect. So that about wraps up today's podcast there. Thanks a lot again for coming on, and thanks for inviting me down to the shop here to do the podcast in person. David Kozlowsky: [01:08:10] Yeah, no problem. It's been fun. Peter Koch: [01:08:12] It has been fun. So where can our listeners find out more about safe approach? David Kozlowsky: [01:08:16] Yeah. You can go to our website www.safeapproach.com, or you can call (800) 471-1157 or you can email [email protected], or you can email me directly. [email protected]. Peter Koch: [01:08:33] Perfect. Thanks. I really, really appreciate you. David Kozlowsky: [01:08:36] Thank you Peter Koch: [01:08:36] Right on. And to all of our listeners out there, thanks for spending some time with us today. We've been speaking about leading edge fall protection with David Kozlowsky, president and owner of Safe Approach, right here in Portland, Maine. If you have any questions about fall protection or I'd like to hear more about a particular topic on our podcast. Email me at [email protected]. Also check out our show notes at MEMIC.com/podcast, [01:09:00] where you can find additional resources, links to other podcasts with David and I, as well as our entire podcast archive. And while you're there, sign up for the Safety Net blog so you never miss any of our articles or safety news updates, and if you haven't done so already, I'd really appreciate it. If you would subscribe to the podcast and then take a minute to review us on Spotify, iTunes or whatever podcast service that you found us on. And if you've already done that, thanks because it really, truly helps us spread the word. Please consider sharing the show with a business associate friend or family member who you think will get something out of it. And as always, thank you for the continued support. And until next time, this is Peter Koch reminding you that listening to the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast is good, but using what you learned here is even better.