Safety Leadership: Walking the Walk w/ Randy Klatt

What does it take to be a leader and motivate a group of people to accomplish a common goal? How do you build credibility and develop trust with your team? Are you able to communicate with humility so it’s not about you but about the overall mission? MEMIC Loss Control Director Randy Klatt shares leadership tips from more than 40 years’ experience working in industries where safety is critical to success—in emergency medicine, as an active duty Navy pilot, a commercial airline pilot and an aviation safety instructor at the university level. Peter Koch: Hello listeners, and welcome to the first ever episode of the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast. I'm your host, Peter Koch. Join me and my guests every two weeks to discover new nuggets and insights into work, life, physiology, psychology, common trends and inspired solutions while we discuss safety as it relates to us humans. Check us out at MEMIC.com/podcast or find us on your favorite podcast player by searching M E M I C Safety Experts. New episodes drop every two weeks, so jump on over to MEMIC Safety Experts podcast and subscribe. In this our inaugural episode, we're going to talk about leadership and its role in driving safety in any industry as a safety consultant working for MEMIC for the past 17 years and across a variety of different industries. What I've realized is that safety impacts every part of each position that you have and every task that you do. And being an effective leader can create a great culture of safety and increase safety performance. So, let's get started with a quote from James Buchanan, “The test of leadership is not to put greatness in humanity, but to elicit it for the greatness is already there.” He was an American president from 1857 to 1861 and realized that even then people had the inherent ability to succeed. And good leaders will provide motivation and opportunity for that success to manifest. For today's episode about safety leadership, I'm speaking with Randy Klatt, CSP and director of Region 2 Loss Control at MEMIC to better understand how leadership affects safety, culture and employee performance. Randy has over 40 years of experience working in industries where safety is critical to success. His career spans emergency medicine, active duty Navy pilot, commercial airline pilot and aviation safety instructor at the university level. Randy has worked with MEMIC since 2003 and he's been leading a team of consultants serving the southern and central Maine areas. Randy, welcome to the podcast today. And thanks for being here for our first episode. Randy Klatt: Hello, Peter. It's good to be here. Thanks for having me. Peter Koch: I really appreciate coming down and talking about leadership with us today. So, let's jump right into it. So, in your opinion and from your experience working within the field and within the aviation industry and then working here for MEMIC for as long as you have, what does it take to be a leader? Randy Klatt: What does it take to be a leader? You could take all day to answer that question, Peter. Of course, there's all kinds of things involved in that. But if I had to pinpoint just a few things, if we consider what the definition of leadership is to start with, to motivate a group of people to accomplish a common goal.  What do you need to motivate people?  And there are all kinds of skills and attributes that we could talk about. But to me, there are two things that stand out right away. One is if you're going to talk the talk, you've got to walk the walk. So there has to be that credibility piece. There has to be that trust from your, from your people. If they understand that you actually do what you say they need to do. They'll be willing to follow you. And the second attribute that I really like is humility. If you look at history, some of the greatest leaders in history were actually very humble people. They didn't really like to talk about themselves. It wasn't about them. It's about the team. It's about the accomplishment of the goal, the overall mission. So those are the things that come to my mind from the very top. Peter Koch: I think that's fantastic. And those two things seem to be able to translate pretty well right into leadership in the safety field and the safety world to motivate people to be safer. Though we don't always see that happen. I mean, that's really why we have our jobs as safety experts here, because workplace safety doesn't always occur. And we do have injuries in the workplace, and it does happen. So how would those two attributes really work in towards workplace safety and becoming a successful leader in workplace safety? Randy Klatt: Well, again, if the people that work for you or report to you or work in your organization, if they trust their leaders, they'll listen to their leaders.  And if the message from leadership is, we're going to operate a safe operation. We're going to follow the rules; we're going to do what the right thing to do is, and then people are much more likely to do that. So, a leader is such an important foundation of any safety program. Most workers know what the right thing to do is from a standpoint of safety. But if that isn't reinforced by leadership, by supervisors, if that isn't encouraged, if that isn't something that people are held accountable to, then what happens? Then, then we're probably depending upon production and we're looking to production, we want to get the job done.  Of course, everybody wants to get the job done but if the leaders are saying, yes, the job is important, but let's balance that with safety, we're going to do it. But we're going to do it safely. People are much more likely to do that. If leadership just says get the job done, turns around and walks away. Well, you know what the results will be. People will focus on the job. They will get the job done. But they're going to risk their own safety or the safety of others in order to do that. So, leadership does start at the top. We could talk all day again about different levels of leadership and what's most important, but having a solid mission in mind and holding people accountable to that and treating them with respect and trust at the same time, making sure they're doing what they're supposed to do. Supporting them with their needs. That's what's going to get things done. And that's what's going to provide a safe and healthful workplace. When I see a claim, when I see an injury, typically my first thought is, where was the supervisor? Where were the leaders? Why was that set of circumstances allowed to exist in the first place? That should not have happened. And yes, everyone is responsible for their own safety and health. So, we can look to individuals, but there is probably a culture that developed there that set up that scenario. And with proper leadership, it wouldn't have happened. Peter Koch: Sure. Boy, those are really fascinating. And when you think about it, and when I look at the different people that I've worked with in the past, there hasn't been any business owner, supervisor, manager, vice president, whoever that would be that I'm communicating with, none of them want their employees to get hurt. Not a one. And if you come right out and ask them, did you, were you expecting that person to get injured? Did you want that person to get? No, they definitely don't want that. So how does that desire for someone to go home in one piece then get convoluted or changed? And I think the leadership equation is there because most of them have stood in front of their employees and said, I want you to work safely. You have permission to say no if the job seems too challenging for you or unsafe and come to me or come to your manager or come to your supervisor. But yet, we still see that employees will make different choices. And I do believe it comes from the trust of that individual or maybe interpretation. So, if I stand in front of you as the supervisor and say, I want you to work safely, and like you said, then wander away to do something else. Maybe it's working on productivity or scheduling or some of the other tasks, or maybe to go take over a job that I had done in the past and someone didn't show up today, so I'm going to step into their shoes so we can keep productivity going. There's a mixed message there that comes from that supervisor or manager. Randy Klatt: There is absolutely a mixed message there. And what I often see is, and what we always see, especially in manufacturing, a large facility, you walk onto the floor and there's a big banner that says safety is number one.  Safety is my number one priority. Safety is job one. We see those things a lot. And I was just at a location not too long ago and I saw that banner. And we're right next to it was a railing on this, on a set of stairways that was missing the mid rail and would in no way be compliant with the OSHA standards. And I could frame it in the same photograph. Something is wrong there. The message is a good message and it should be promoted as a priority for the organization. But when you have a clear hazard right next to it, that hasn't been addressed by anyone, we know that that is not a message that's permeated through all of leadership, that has been started at the top and has made its way all the way down. So, something is missing. So, the message is, yes, be safe, but just get the job done. That's the subliminal message. And that's when people get hurt. People don't, you're absolutely right, people don't want to get hurt. They don't try to get hurt. And there are no business owners I've ever met who want to see people injured. Certainly, we don't. But if you're not actively engaged in preventing it.  Actively engaged in fostering a culture that says workplace injuries are not inevitable and they are not acceptable.  And we have to do everything we can to prevent them.  If you have that kind of culture, you probably will prevent at least a very good portion of those injuries. And it's not just lip service. It's actual actions that are required. Peter Koch: And there is the difference between having a mission that states that that injuries are not acceptable and they're not inevitable and they are preventable.  And then holding people accountable for actions that will support or promote the mission, whatever those actions are. And there's multitude of things that we'll get into later on in the podcast of what, what supervisors can do to help lead in safety. So, what are some examples of how good leadership can have a positive effect on workplace safety? Maybe some specifics that you've seen out there, some behaviors or actions or practices that you've seen work really well in the workplace? Randy Klatt: Well, I can give you an example. That again, happened not too long ago. One of the insureds that I work with, the safety manager, is very aggressive. He's well versed in safety.  He's a good man. He wants to prevent injuries doing his job. And it's taken a while to turn the culture around at the organization, but he's done really well with it. They recently turned down a hundred thousand dollars in income in a job.  They could have taken on this extra role and made a lot more money. But there were safety issues involved and in what they were about to do. And as the safety manager, he stood up as a leader and said, we should not do this. And the owner did back him up and said, all right, we won't. Long story short, eventually, that customer that they were working with agreed to change conditions and changed the environment that they were going to be working in, and they ended up getting the job anyway. But I thought that was really a great example of how a safety leader stood up to do his job and said, this is not acceptable, we should not take on this risk. In the past, that hundred thousand dollars of income probably would have been the driver.  But the culture has become safety oriented enough to say, and accepting enough to understand that, ah right, if we get somebody hurt, we're gonna lose that hundred thousand dollars many times over, so let's not do that. So, I think it's very possible for businesses to do that when they have that focus, a broad, focus on safety, culture, productivity, quality. We've talked about those things many times in the safety world about balancing those three. And you can do that.  But you have to have leaders who are willing to do it.  Because if I told the frontline employee to go do that job, he would have done it. He would have risked his own safety, probably because he was told to do the job and a good employee will do what they're tasked to do because they feel obligated to complete the mission.  Peter Koch: Complete the mission. Trust their, trust that their employer has their best interests in mind or on the negative side, not trust, but do the job because they don't want to lose their job. Randy Klatt: Sure. Peter Koch: There's parts there, too. Randy Klatt: Employees have to, they're paid to do the job. And they will say that to me.  That's my job. Well, it is your job, but it's not your job, your risk, your safety. And if you have someone that is in leadership who is supporting that, in the end, it'll work out so much better. So, in this particular case, not only did they prevent injury, they corrected a site that was not safe, and they still got the job in the end, anyway. Peter Koch: That’s a fantastic outcome. Randy Klatt: Really a great outcome for everyone. So, I think that's the best example I have in my recent history of where leadership really took over and did the right thing to prevent injury. Peter Koch: And really, when you look at what they put first. And so you talk about the balance of the three things that get measured most within business, which is the quality or service of the products you're putting out there, the productivity, how well you are managing the finances, what is coming in versus what's going out. And then safety being that last part. If you put either productivity or service at the basis of all your decisions, there is a darn good chance that that particular decision that happened at the company that you were referencing before, would never have happened because it would have been about the money. Or it had been about the quality of the product that they had to put out first, instead of understanding that they didn't have the, they weren't able to manage the risks or the exposures that they had for their employees. So, having safety at the base of their stool or the base of their triangle. Randy Klatt: In the end, it is all about leadership. You know, when we go back again to that definition, motivating people to accomplish a common goal. Well, the common goal is business, it's productivity, it's making money, but it's also doing it safely because obviously safety impacts the bottom line as well. So, you can't do one without the other two the quality product, productivity and safety.  It all has to work together. And a leader has to understand that all the way down to the front-line supervisors. Peter Koch: Do you have enough experience with that one particular company to talk about how they got to that point to have safety be such an important part of what they do?  Randy Klatt: It has been a many year process and it's a company that's growing. So, when you're growing, the financial end of the business is so important because there's so much risk and you're inheriting other territories, other employee groups. So, the safety manager has grown considerably, not only in his experience and his ability to focus on the right things, but also to stand up and say, no, we can't do that.  To hold people accountable and to convince their owners, the board of directors, you know, other people involved, that yeah, this is the right thing to do. It's it may cost us up front. We could have lost that contract. We could have lost that business. Fortunately for him, in the end, they didn't. And that was just the icing on the cake. But it does take quite a process for a lot of organizations if they haven't been focused on it before to turn that all around. It's like turning around a ship. It takes a long time to get that baby going the other direction. And once it goes the other way, it has to be maintained as well. So continual education, continual training, continual focus on the right things. Peter Koch: So, what did they have experiences in their past where a similar decision was made, and they found success with it? Or did they have maybe a negative experience in their past where safety wasn't focused on and there was an employee injury or something else that affected the productivity and safety that allowed them to sort of leapfrog into this place? Because you the company that's growing certainly has a lot of challenges. And the finances are truly important as the margins are pretty tight right at first as you're starting to expand and there's a lot of risk. But conversely, even if you're not growing and you're in a challenging place in the marketplace, doesn't matter where you are, those same pressures could be there. So, there are many times there needs to be something to move that company towards that leadership, the safety leadership place. Was there a place in that history there do you know? Randy Klatt: I think there was. I know they had a couple of bad years. They had some serious injuries. And I, I don't know that that company-wide, they recognized that as much as they should have. And I give all credit to their safety director because he made it clear, he's the one that stood up and stamped his feet and did what he had to do to get everyone's attention. And he takes it very personally as well. He cares about the people that work there, and he knows it's his job to protect them. And he also knows that he's not out there in the field with them at all times, so he has to depend on those managers and supervisors that are out there in the field. But I think they saw the light after a year or two of fairly unsuccessful safety performance. And said all right, we have to do something. And maybe he's right. Maybe we need do need to focus on some other things. And that's what they've done. And it's turned them around quite well.  When their rates are way down, their experience rating's way down. Losses are down. Lost work time is almost gone. Restricted duty and return to work program is robust. All those things. But those are standard things we always recommend, and any company can adopt them, but it takes a village to make that all happen. It takes everyone to understand the benefits of that. Peter Koch: Certainly. And that's what you're speaking about there is not so we're talking a lot about the leadership of working safely. But there's also some leadership that has to take place in order to manage an injury that has happened on the factory floor or at your business. Because if you don't have good leadership to recognize the dignity, dignity of the human person and that they have value to come back to the business and also the effect that ignoring that would have on your business.  That can put you in a precarious position as well and can have a lot of negative effects in a circular fashion, that the negative effects from not managing that injury can also have negative effects on the pre-loss side of your business, on the safety side. Your ability to get workers to work safely, to trust you that you have their best interests in mind. Randy Klatt: Absolutely right. And in today's business environment, when we're talking 3 percent unemployment and how the economy is, is booming. What do companies need more than anything? They need people. They need reliable workers. They need people there doing their job. And if they're being hurt on the job, that that's not going to help anybody. So, the economic side of it is so important. But beyond that, of course, we would more and more focus on what is your most valuable asset, that person. And that's the person we want to go home every day with all their fingers and toes, and we have to make sure that that happens. If you treat your employees like you treat your family, I think that's a fundamental leadership position to take. You're probably going to have fewer injuries in the workplace. So, I am reminded of a quote from Abraham Lincoln. You must remember that some things that legally are right but are not morally right. So, what's the right thing to do for those people that work for you? It's to make sure their home, home safe every night. That's a that's a leadership role you have to take, a position you have to take. And if it means turning down some business, so be it. Just the right thing to do. Peter Koch: Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Randy Klatt: Correct. Peter Koch: That's a great quote from Mr. Lincoln down there.  And this kind of moves us to a question around why people need to be led for safety anyway. And it comes into that, quote just because we can doesn't mean we should. So, there's a lot of cans that employees can make choices on within the workplace. And sometimes those cans are the right, sometimes they're not the right decision because they shouldn't have taken it. But you know, the universal question. Why? Why do people do the things that they do? There's many motivations for that. And it comes down to that question, why do people need to be led to safe work practices or into a safety culture? Why do people have to be led? Why do you have to be a leader to do that? Randy Klatt: That's a great question. And again, we can take all day to talk about that. But if you think about the fundamentals of safety, it's doing the right thing, which may not be the most easy thing to do. It might it might not be the quickest thing to do. We could talk about triggers, behaviors and consequences. You know, humans do things. We behave in a way that will result in a favorable consequence, in a positive result. So, if I have to set up a job and I need a six-foot ladder, but all I have is a four-foot ladder.  Well, the positive consequence for me is going to, could be, that I will use that four-foot ladder and stop, stand on the top of it. Yes, I'm risking safety, but I get that job done pretty quickly. And if, if it's done and I'm not hurt and I can move on to my next job, that's a positive consequence. So, I'm likely to do that. Now, I know that there is a possibility of a negative consequence there. I could fall and be hurt. Likelihood is it's not going to happen. It's not the most immediate thing in my brain. So, I'm going to go for the soon, certain, positive consequence. I'm going to go do that with less than ideal tool or equipment. And that's where we have to lead people to say and to make sure that we follow through in the workplace. But to say that that's not acceptable. I don't want you taking those risks. I want you to go take the extra five minutes. Go find the correct ladder. Go find the taller one so that you can use it safely and properly. And, yes, it's gonna take you a few extra minutes. But now I know that we have reduced the likelihood of an injury significantly. And that's what's important to me. You're still get the job done and that person has to understand that.  And again, once you build the culture and once leadership says that that's the way we're gonna do things around here, then they're much more likely to do exactly that. You would think. And of course, I hear this all the time it's common sense, right? Safety's common-sense Peter.  What are we, we don't need to worry about that safety stuff? What's OSHA?  Ahhh, it's called common sense?! Well, no, it isn't, because we know that common sense isn't all that common anyway, right? And we know it's based on each individual's experiences and those are all different. So, we cannot rely on that. We have to demonstrate. We have to train. We have to provide the right environment that people will understand. Okay this is the acceptable way to do this. And there is an unacceptable way. And that may be the way we used to do business. Think about how many injuries we see from body parts caught in machinery, moving parts, pinch points, drawn into augers, whatever. Amputations. Oh, my goodness. Those are all absolutely preventable. When I see it and hear about it, I think alright so where was there lockout tag program? Yes, they have one. Oh, where was the machine guard? It was there, but the worker took it off.  Why would he do that?  You know we think about those -- what was he thinking? -- moments. But if we really examine it closer, we'll figure out what he was thinking.  What he was thinking was he's done that twenty-seven times already. The supervisor knows that they are doing it and he's turned his back to it because it's quick and easy and they get that line operating again or unjam the machine or whatever it is. And that's paying off in the long run with productivity. And that's the mindset.  But really, what's happening is we're bypassing safety guards, we're violating rules, we're violating our training. And we know that's true. But I'm gonna get immediate consequence that's positive because I get this thing done quick. Well that's what bites us, because eventually it catches up to everybody. Peter Koch: Sure does. Why, so the solution sounds easy. The solution is providing an environment where employees feel like they have a, have a job they can do well, and they can do safely.  Provide them training, provide them feedback. Why is it so difficult for supervisors, managers, leaders within the workplace to have those conversations with those staff? Because you hit it right on the head. You talk about that example of the person getting their fingers caught in something because they remove the guard. And there is knowledge by the supervisor that this has happened before and they've let it go, even though that they know it's not the right process. Trigger, behaviors, consequences. Why does the supervisor not have the conversation when they see it happen or when they see the near-miss that occur, where they walk by the guards off the machines running properly?  The employee is back at the workstation. Nothing's happening. But he knows because the guards off that hands were near or close to the moving parts. Why don't they have that conversation? Randy Klatt: I think that's human nature, to for the most part, avoid conflict. It's easier not to do it. It's easier to walk past without saying anything because I've got ten thousand other things on my to do list today. And that one is I'm just going to let that one go because the odds of an injury are pretty remote. And we've done it that way many times. We could talk about the seven step steps to stagnation. One of those seven steps is we've always done it that way. Of course, that doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. So, if I can avoid the conflict, maybe that worker is a friend of mine. Maybe we've worked together for 20 years. Well, it's hard for me to go as a supervisor to approach him and say, you cannot do this, but that's what you have to do when you're stepping up as a supervisor for safety. It's just not the right thing to do. The wrong thing to do is to ignore it or to allow it to occur, because eventually that will bite everybody. Now, do you think it sounds difficult, but if you have the culture that supports it, it becomes a lot easier if you have if you approach it in the right way.  A strong leader doesn't talk about himself. He doesn't make it about him. He makes it about the workers, the team. He has to be harder on himself than he is on others. So, if he is actually violating the rules himself and then telling others it's OK, that's or holding trying to hold others accountable when he is in fact violating rules himself and that that's not going to work either. And this goes back goes back thousands of years. Talk about Confucius, for crying out loud. What'd he say?  A great man is hard on himself. A small man is hard on others. So being a leader doesn't mean you're a straight out... Peter Koch: Authoritarian. Randy Klatt: That's the word, thank you very much. That's not what it's about. It is about holding people accountable. But if I just say, hey, come here, let me talk to you for a minute. Why is this this way? Why is the guard off the machine?   Tell me why. And they explain why. Maybe there is something deeper there. Maybe it's the guards always does make the machine jam up or it breaks a lot, or it does slow down productivity considerably when it really shouldn't. Maybe there is that there's something there that you can dig into and correct. So, they are more likely to do it. That's as simple as maybe safety glasses that people will wear. Why don't you wear them? Because they fog up all the time. Well, let's buy some that have an anti-fog coating, and we'll correct that issue. So, there are solutions, but again, you have to dig into them to find them, and only a strong leader will do that. And will take on the conflict that's inevitable. But do it in a way that makes you make sure that those people understand because you care about them. You're leading from the heart when you do that.  And that's a big topic. But if you again, if you treat people like your family, I think that's analogous to leading from your heart. It's what is the right thing to do for these people. And if we do that, we're probably going to do the right thing for the company as well. Peter Koch: I think that's a great place to take a quick break, because we're really coming to a head here talking about how leading from the heart and humility comes into being an effective leader and how challenging it can be for a supervisor to, to address some of those safety concerns if the culture is not there to support it. So, let's take a quick break and we'll come right back with more discussion about safety leadership. Peter Koch: Welcome back to the Safety Experts podcast. Today, we're talking with Randy Klatt, Director of Region II Loss Control at MEMIC. Let's jump right back in with some more questions.  Peter Koch: So, before the break, we were talking about how supervisors can be successful leaders in workplace safety, and some of the challenges that they've had, or they can have, or barriers to them becoming effective leaders. And you had some good points that there has to be leadership from the heart there, that they have to lead with that personal interaction. And then the challenge is, as humans, we don't typically like the conflict. So the positive interaction, or the positive result of me not engaging in the conflict, when I see something that's not being done safely, and going to do something that I know I'm really good at, is I get that task done and I feel a sense of completion, even though on the other end I've got some other challenges. That seems to be a natural place for a supervisor to be, especially a new supervisor, because like how does a supervisor typically get their job? Randy Klatt: That's the crux of the problem, isn't it? So, you are an outstanding plumber. You do your job very well and you're rewarded by now becoming the supervisor of a team of four plumbers. Or you're now the job super or in a production facility you're now a production manager. What do I know about managing people? I did the job really well. So, there's always that tendency for new supervisors in particular to do the job themselves, to say to someone, oh, just let me do that.  I'll take care of that, because I know I can do it quicker. So, I can focus on production. That's what I've always done. But now, suddenly, as a supervisor, I've gone to a lot of other things I need to do. I need to understand people. I need to know what motivates them. Again, my job, motivate people to accomplish the common goal. How do I do that? What are they thinking? How do I manage? How do I do progressive coaching? How do I schedule? How do I interact with them on the discipline program? How do I know how to get them to do what needs to be done? And that's the hard part about being a supervisor. That's leadership, though. And yes, some people have that innate ability to do that. Others not as much. But it can be learned. It can be learned, and it can be practiced. And that's the important thing. You can read a book on leadership. There are about 10 million of them in publication. So, if you read the book and then you put the book down and you don't ever do any of it, you think ahh, that was kind of cool? Well, clearly, it's not going to help you any. So, practicing it in workplace is the way that you're going to get better at it. And that's something that we probably don't support or do enough of in this world. If you look at the numbers, employee engagement in their employers', employee satisfaction numbers, those are going down continually.  They have for the last 30 or 40 years, people aren't really happy in their jobs. If you look at overall numbers, why is that? Because my theory is anyway, and I have some support in this that people aren't feeling like they're appreciated. They don't feel like people care about them as people. They feel like I'm a number. When I worked for the airlines, I was a commercial pilot. I had a number 2 5 8 2 9 4, was me. That's all my, that’s all my chief pilot knew. There's not a whole lot of satisfaction in that. Let's treat people like people. Let's lead from the heart. And they are much more likely to follow. And I'm not trying to create followers. Actually, what I'm trying to do is create new leaders. That's a leader's job is to train their replacement. That's the way things happen with productivity increases, that the teamwork increases, the mission vision becomes clearer for everyone and they will do it and do it happily.  When someone puts in that extra effort, they work a little overtime, or they complete that project over a weekend. When you didn't really specifically say they had to, but boy, you really appreciate that they did. Then you know that there's some leadership involved there. There's some, they do it because they want to do it, not because they're forced to do it. I would never tell anybody to work all weekend to do something. But if they did, I know they did it because they thought it was the right thing to do. That's a powerful environment to work in. Peter Koch: Sure. And I imagine that you've had the same conversation or a similar conversation with someone who has worked for the weekend or gone the extra mile or did a lot more. And you know that they on their personal side sacrificed some of their own time, their own life, their time with their family, that time with their friends, the time that things that they like to do outside of work and had the conversation with them about it. Super appreciate what you've done. It's an amazing outcome. How do we not do this next time? Because if you keep doing this, you're just going to get burned out. Randy Klatt: Absolutely right. And that would be my that would be the exact conversation I would have and have had many times. I appreciate your effort. I really do. And you do great work. But I also know that work life balance is so important and I need you happy for the long run, as my senior V.P. would say, two philosophies: Surround yourself with people that are smarter than you are and make sure that they are there working for your company at your retirement party. And I think that's pretty basic, but that sounds good to me. I want all these people on my team to be around for the long run. I don't want any turnover. I don't want to lose the valuable people we have. I don't want them hurt. I don't want anything negative to occur. So, I have to treat them like I love them all. And that right comes right from the heart. And if I do that, they are much more likely to perform just to extraordinary levels. And they do it because they want to. And I try to tone them back. If you have a group of, a team that's performing beyond expectations and you have to spend most your time telling them to slow down and not spend so many hours at work and all that, well, you know, you're a pretty good leader and they will appreciate hearing that message. So, I think that's so important.  And people don't work for the dollar. The dollar is not the motivator. Yeah, we all have to be paid. We all want to be paid. That's what we have a job for in the end, I suppose. But that's not why we stay there. That's not why we continue to do that. And that's not why I'm going to go over the top for my manager. I'm not going to do it because I'm getting paid.  I’m going to do it because I think I will be appreciated for it. I think it's the right thing to do and it will help the team. And that's what a leader will do. Peter Koch: Yeah. Get the individual to realize what's in it for them, how their success can help the company and how it will be appreciated. How what you did, whether it is going above and beyond to deal with extra productivity or like in the earlier example of the company, the safety director standing up and saying this is not the right project for us. I have to imagine that that in itself, regardless of the environment that you're in, when it represents a pretty sizable chunk of money coming into a company whose expanding to get up and say this is not the right direction for us to go, that is a difficult thing for that individual to do. And then I'm I imagine because of the culture that that company has, there was discussions about it with him and the owner or the general manager about. Yeah, you're right. And I appreciate you bringing that up. Going the extra mile in that case. Randy Klatt: Yeah, correct.  So, again, a success story for everyone, but a difficult thing to do. And again, we're not often trained how to be a supervisor or how to be a leader, how to be a manager. And that's what has to be it has to be done. And you can learn techniques and skills. You can practice them. You'll be better at it when you do that, and you will see results. Sometimes we will invest time in training and in the overall outlook is we've wasted time. Gee, that's another class that we have to go to, or now half my team is in a class for a day and that just takes away from my productivity. But in the end, the design is to save time.  Is to make that person and those people better leaders, to help them to understand what techniques really do work and to become more productive because they're going to have a more loyal team following them. Peter Koch: That's an interesting point that you bring up about the practice. And I know you see it and I've seen it before we go to do a workshop or a training at a company. And it's a Hands-On skill, it's a technical skill that they're asking for, and we're coming in to do some training with their staff. They want it. They spend a lot of time, and from that, a lot of payroll dollars putting people in the class. It could be an hour class. It could be a four-hour class. It could be a couple of day class. The goal is for the employees to take that information and apply it into the workplace. Then maybe you come back in six months and nothing that was gone over in the training has been implemented. And you have a conversation with the supervisors and the managers, and they start talking to you about how it's how it is just a waste of time, we don't want to do this again. Going on the premise that the information was valuable, because if we're if we're not presenting valuable information, then it's not something that we should present. But the information is valuable. That should be taken into consideration and practiced in the workplace. I think that same principle goes to the softer skills, the human skills, the interaction skills of how to help someone who's been an excellent employee, really good at what they do and helping them along to work on those interpersonal skills to have those difficult conversations with those employees. And it could be even a difficult conversation on the positive, you can be just as you can have a negative effect with a positive interaction depending on how you come off.  'At a boy! Great job! Super job! And if I've heard that for the millionth time as an employee, I'm starting to think that I'm not really getting the honest answer. And I start to doubt whether or not you know what I'm doing or if I know what I'm doing. Randy Klatt: Very good.  Yeah, that's the verbal version of the poster that says safety is one, number one, when we have hazards all over the place. So, I often get that question, do I have to thank people for doing their job? Or there will be supervisors who say, I don't have to thank people for doing their job, that's what they're getting paid for. And I can't disagree any stronger. We do have to thank people for what they're doing because recognition, acknowledgement of their successes is so important to us as human beings. Again, that's why I'm working there. If I can make 50 cents an hour somewhere else and I don't feel like I'm valued, I'm going to go somewhere else. But if I feel like, wow, my leader really does care about me as a person, when I walk in every morning, he or she asks me, how's your, how was your evening? How's the family? How are those kids doing? What'd you do over the weekend? He takes a minute to actually engage as a human. That's pretty cool. And when we ask people in in our leadership courses about what did you most admire in a leader in your past? Could be an employer, could've been a coach or a teacher, whoever. But just think of someone in your past and who really had an influence on your life. And what did you most admire about them? And we write down all those attributes. They are all human skills. I admire them because he was a good listener, because he was patient, understanding had integrity and honesty. You know, those things. And that goes on and on and on. And those are all human skills that have nothing to do with the specific job or the production of the company or dollars or anything else. It's about being a good human being. Randy Klatt: So, if you want to be a good supervisor, so son of a gun, you have to be a good human being. That's really what it's all about. And that's what people expect and are so often disappointed in. People join organizations and they leave managers. I think if you keep that in your mind, that'll sound pretty true over time. It'll ring true. And we can prevent that loss of those people if we treat them well. And this is coming from someone who spent 21 years in the military where you're given an order, you say "Aye, Aye" and you go do it. That's mission accomplishment's number one. But still, at that level, you have to lead from the heart. You have to understand what these people are doing. And there's no, I don't know, there's no more demanding situation than a military combat situation. Now, personally, I was never involved in that on that level. But if you ask those guys that were what made you do that, what makes you give up your, be willing to give up your life for someone else? What makes you go back to those situations? It's all about the people that they served with and the people they served for. And they're willing to follow that leader to do what he's he or she says we have to do because they feel that love and that connection and human interaction and the common bond, the band of brothers kind of thing. So, you can look to some fabulous leaders like Dick Winters from Band of Brothers. And we've probably all seen that miniseries or read the book. But that man led from the heart all the way. He was all about the people that served for him and not about himself.  That's really what you have to do in the workplace.  So you can take all those stories from Abraham Lincoln and Confucius and go all the way down to your production floor and use some of that knowledge to treat your people differently, to interact with them differently, to show the way that you want it done and live that life and people will walk on water for you.  If you lead them. Peter Koch: And it seems complicated or it could seem simple, I just have to lead. I have to lead from the heart. I have to, I have to be able to engage with that person as a human being.  Many times, in the workplace there are demands that get in the way, but it really starts with honest recognition. And you hit that right on the head. If you if you talk to any of the leaders that are out there, leaders, in industry now, leaders in industry in the past, leaders in government, leaders in the military, it is about recognizing those efforts that the individual and then the team put forth. And you talked about it earlier, that we are conditioned for that. As humans, we look for recognition. And I think a really interesting example, we can pull right out of the leadership place, but go into modern technology and look at Facebook and Instagram and all of those pieces. And when those platforms were originally released, it was a place to communicate, and then you went back to see what someone said about your communication. Now, it's so easy to look at your likes. How many likes do I have? How many, how many times did someone recognize me for what I did? And that same innate desire for someone to recognize what we do well is in all of us. Sometimes it's a little more in the forefront. Sometimes someone is a, it's way in the background. But everyone has that desire to do a good job and to be recognized for that job. So, from a leadership standpoint, that simple first step is to understand what your employees are doing and recognize them for doing something well. Randy Klatt: Absolutely right. And it isn't all pie in the sky. It's not all roses and stuff like that either. It's when you hold people accountable to their duties, they will appreciate that in the long run. They do want to do a good job. There aren't very many and I'm sure there are a few, but there aren't really very many people that want to fail. They don't. They from the lowest level entry person who has never worked anywhere and doesn't know anything. What he or she does know is I want to do well. I want to do something. I want to feel like I've accomplished some something, and that someone recognizes that. But if I am messing up, if I'm making mistakes, like I want to know that, too. I don't really want to be yelled at. I don't want to be belittled. And I want to be publicly shamed. But I do want to know. So, there's, there's definitely a place for accountability and discipline and progressive coaching and those things as well.  So, it's not always going to work with a big happy smile and saying great team, we're all really good. Maybe they are and they should know that. But there may be sometimes when you have to take the little, that conflict again. Take that on and say, well, that wasn't quite what I was looking for. Tell me what you were thinking and let's work out a better way to go about this the next time, those kinds of things. Peter Koch: Yeah, that's a great a great example. And coming back to that example that you talked about earlier, again, about the machine guard being missing and taking that step where the production line might be going great. You've got good product coming out of the other end. The quality is high. We're meeting or exceeding our productivity demands.  But we see that one safety issue that's there and taking that moment to find out why it's not there.  And helping the person understand why it should be there and that in no way should that ever be removed unless we're following the practices and procedures that allow us to do that. Randy Klatt: Yes, very true.  And as we look at people in the workplace that aren't really trained to be supervisors, but they want to succeed, they're not generally held accountable on performance evaluation, for example, for safety performance. And a lot of organizations there is a box that says safety and it'll probably have a checkmark in it. They're acceptable or you'll get a three out of five or whatever, because it's there. But if I'm a production supervisor, I'm held accountable for production.  So that's what I'm going to do. And if people get hurt, it may or may not even rise to the level of being noticed. And that's a shame. That's not the way that should work. We should hold people accountable, not just for production, but for safety as well. And as we train those new supervisors who don't really know how to manage people, we need to manage those expectations of "You are going to operate safely." I want you to be productive because that's what I'm measured on. And it's not about me, though. It's about you. It's about you  working here. I appreciate it. I want you to be successful. I'll recognize that success. But I'm going to make sure that you're doing it safely, too. Because I want you to go home every night. Nice and safe. Peter Koch: That's fantastic. I think that just about wraps up this week's Safety Experts podcast. And I want to thank you very much, Randy, for sharing your expertise with us. Do you have any final comments or tips that you'd like to leave our listeners with today around safety leadership? Randy Klatt: Oh, I think, again, when we consider what safety is all about, it really is leading from the heart. It's done unto others as you would like them to do to you, right? It's I'm in this with you. We're in this together.  I want you to go home every night safely. But I have to make sure that you're doing what you are supposed to do to make that happen. And if I have to tell you to get down from that ladder right now, because that's unacceptable, that's what I'm gonna have to do. Because you weren't doing it right. And I don't want you to fall off. But then we'll talk about it and we'll figure out a better way to do the job. And if you see something out there in the workplace that isn't right, and you come to me and tell me that we're going to act on it.  That integrity piece is so important. So as a good leader, I'm going to lead from the heart. But I'm gonna be as humble as I can because it's not about me, it's about you guys. And I'm training my replacement. So, who's gonna be the next person to take my job? And we're gonna do this all together and do it safely, so we all are happy. And that's I guess if I was going to wrap that all up, that's what I would say. Peter Koch: And with that, we're at the end of another episode of MEMIC's Safety Experts podcast. We've been speaking with Randy Klatt, Director of Region 2 Loss Control at MEMIC about safety leadership. If you had any questions for Randy or like to hear more about our particular topic from our podcast. Email us at [email protected]. Check out our web site at www.MEMIC.com/podcast where you can find our podcast archive. And while you're there, you should sign up for our safety net blog, so you never miss another article or safety news update. And if you haven't already, take a couple of minutes and review us on Stitcher, i-Tunes or whichever podcast service that you find us on, it'll help us get the word out. And if you've already written that review, thanks. Please consider sharing the show with a business associate friend or family member who you think will get something out of it. This podcast is presented by MEMIC, a leader in workers' compensation insurance and a company committed to the health and safety of all workers. To learn more about how MEMIC can help your business, visit MEMIC.com. And as always, thank you for your continued support. And so, until next time, this is your host, Peter Kotch, reminding you that listening to the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast is good, but acting on what you heard is even better. Resources, Ideas and People Mentioned in Podcast MEMIC – https://www.memic.com/ Peter Koch – https://www.memic.com/workplace-safety/safety-consultants/peter-koch Randy Klatt – https://www.memic.com/workplace-safety/safety-consultants/randy-klatt James Buchanan – https://www.history.com/topics/us-presidents/james-buchanan Abraham Lincoln – https://www.history.com/topics/us-presidents/abraham-lincoln Seven Steps to Stagnation – https://www.memic.com/workplace-safety/safety-net-blog/2012/october/the-seven-steps-to-stagnation Talk About Confucius – https://www.philosophytalk.org/shows/confucius