Slip, Trip and Fall Prevention w/ Maureen Anderson

Take your center of mass and put it outside your base of support and what do you get??  Well, you could get better acquainted with the ground at best, and at worst you could have a life altering fall.  Preventing slip and fall events is more than just signage, giving people slip resistant footwear, or mopping up a spill.  There has to be a strategy that deals with all aspects of the slip and fall cause – the surface, the awareness of the worker, their footwear and its compatibility with the surface, and finally the environment the surface and employee are in.  A great solution for one space might be a total failure in another.   On this episode of the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast, Peter talks with Maureen Anderson, Safety Management Consultant with MEMIC about slip and fall prevention.  They exchange personal experiences investigating slip and fall events, discuss the cost of slips and falls, and share different approaches to slip and fall prevention such as SAFE and the hierarchy of controls.  Explore possible solutions to the slip and fall problem. Peter Koch: Hello listeners, and welcome to the Safety Experts podcast. We've all been there getting from one point to another, having a conversation, starting a task, walking back from lunch when all of a sudden, your foot or both feet slip out from underneath you and you go down. Sometimes you get back up and shake it off and you're right back at it. Other times, you might not be as lucky. And the results can be life changing. Today, we're going to unpack the cause and effect of slip and fall events on the Safety Experts podcast. And this podcast is presented by MEMIC, a leading worker's compensation provider based on the East Coast. New episode of the podcast drops every two weeks featuring interviews with leaders in the field, top executives MEMIC staff and other industry experts discussing how safety applies to all aspects of our lives. I'm your host, Peter Koch. And for the past 17 years, I've been working for MEMIC as a safety expert within the hospitality and construction industries. What I realize is that safety impacts every part of each position that you have or the tasks that you do. Things as simple as cleaning up a spill, replacing a map, reporting damaged flooring instead of thinking it's someone else's responsibility or recognizing poor lighting are all active choices that we can make throughout our day. For today's episode, the cause and effect of slip and falls, I'm speaking with Maureen Anderson, a safety consultant here with MEMIC, who has a specialty in slip and fall prevention. To better understand slip and fall events, how they impact our business and strategies for prevention. Maureen is a certified professional ergonomist and has been helping businesses get a handle on workplace risk factors for more than 20 years. Maureen, welcome to the podcast. Maureen Anderson: Thank you. I'm very honored to be here. Peter Koch: Fantastic. So, before we slide into the topic, your education and certification are an ergonomics. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: How did you get involved with slip and fall prevention? Maureen Anderson: Well, the approach is very similar in ergonomics. I'm looking at the environment and I'm looking at a person and how they interact with it. In slips, trips and falls, we have a person and we have an environment, but we have an event, usually the slip, trip and fall. So, it's a very similar approach. Things like the environment, behavior becomes an issue. So, it was a very similar approach, an approach that I felt comfortable going down. Peter Koch: Cool. So, you're really looking at the environment that the person works and what changes you can make to that environment. And then the person themselves. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: And what can you do about behavior and what can you do about what the person actually is wearing or doing that interacts with that invite? Maureen Anderson: Yes. Yeah. So, some very easy changes can be made that are not costly, but they can have a huge impact. And sometimes they are very costly changes that you have to make. But it runs the gamut. Peter Koch: It sure does. So, slips and falls, statistically, they are the second most frequent type of injury that we see here, a cause of injury that we see here or MEMIC. And it's ubiquitous. It goes across every industry. Doesn't matter what it is. It could be an office environment, could be construction, could be hospitality, could be manufacturing, slip and falls happen in every industry. Maureen Anderson: But they also say that the majority of them are never reported because they don't result in injuries, that there are lots of slips, someone just momentarily slips, maybe they don't fall, and they just carry on with their day. Or maybe they do fall, but they just bounce up and they go on with their day. Maybe they just have a skinned knee or something and they never tell anyone. So, we know that there is a lot out there that we could do if we knew about all those near misses that we think we could probably approach the problem and prevent a lot of these injuries. Peter Koch: Yes, statistically, it would point us closer towards where we need to focus. Maureen Anderson: Where we need to focus, exactly. If we could find out where all these slips, trips and falls are happening under what conditions. Yeah. Peter Koch: Sure. And it could be based on like you said, it could be a surface issue or a big financial investment that you have to make for the change. Or it might be something super simple. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: Or you can just change the path of where someone goes. Peter Koch: Right. Peter Koch: In order to make sure or the cleaning or whatever it is. Maureen Anderson: Cleaning or the lighting sometimes. Peter Koch: Those are all great things. Do you in the companies that you work with, do you remember any specific events like slip and fall events that were relatively significant that you might tell us about? Maureen Anderson: Sure. We see, I work with a lot of small businesses in a large business that when someone gets hurt, if they are out of work for a while, it  does have an impact on their co-workers who have to fill in for those duties to get it done. But in some small businesses, especially a lot of family owned businesses, it is a huge hole that is not easily filled. I know I worked with one small plumbing outfit and it was a woman who worked in the back office, like doing all their accounting and things like that. She had a fall. Their office had been up on the second floor. She could no longer get there. So, I was working with them from an ergonomics perspective about what they were going to have to do to accommodate her, to get her space decked out on the first floor. But she was not something that you could just hire a temp to fill in and her duties as she was a key part of this family business. Peter Koch: Wow. So that one simple slip and fall then had a fairly significant impact on the individual. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: There is obviously an injury there, but those unintended consequences of the business that worked fine with the office on the second floor. But now all of a sudden, the injury from that slip and fall caused that person to not be able to access it. So, it might change their workflow. Maureen Anderson: Changed, yeah, it changed everything and everything for this woman. Yeah. I was just gonna say sometimes there's all these other unintended consequences about running their business when they moved it to the first floor. Things that she had never really seen or thought about. It was changing everything. Peter Koch: It changes a lot of stuff. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: Wow. So significant impact just from that simple slip and fall. There is a story and there's you. There’re tons of slip and fall stories that are out there. But there is one that sticks with me specifically from one of my early accident investigations that I had to do with MEMIC. And it was from a hospitality, it was in a restaurant. There was some broken flooring in the back. The business had identified it and they were… the fix was to replace the tile. They couldn't replace the tile because the sub floor was rotten. In order to replace the sub floor, they had to remove all the kitchen equipment, remove the floor. So, they had to do that big capital investment for the floor replacement at a time where they shut down. So, they were gonna put it off until their shoulder season. In the interim, their solution was to put a mat over the broken tile so that people wouldn't trip over, and the mat would get cleaned every evening with the rest of the mats and would dry on the loading dock. So, people would come in in the morning for startup. They'd put the mats down. That one mat would be placed in the right spot to cover that area. One day it got forgotten and it didn't get put down. Then the shift gets busy. Lunchtime happens. People are scrambling back and forth. One of the servers who had been working there for a long time was carrying a full bus tray full of dishes into the back. Tripped on that one, broken piece of tile, spun, didn't drop the bus tray because he didn't want to drop the full tray full of dishes, spun and actually hit the back of his head on the corner of the stainless steel prep table that was outlining the path that he was taking back to the dish room. And initially, they didn't think it was a huge issue. You know, they treated him for a concussion and he definitely had a wound and a fracture back there. But they thought he would recover. But there have been and now it's been probably 15 years since this happened. There are still permanent changes that affect that particular individual. So, there's cognition issues. He has balance issues. He has challenges interacting in stressful situations. That he didn't have before. So, you might not know it if you looked at him now, but people that knew him prior to the incident and know him now will definitely notice the difference. So, a lifetime changes for a simple slip and fall. Maureen Anderson: Life altering consequences of a simple problem that could have been prevented. Hate to hear stories like that. But everyone in this field, I mean, that's why we're in it. We don't like to see injuries. Peter Koch: We don't. And then to your point, before we have multiple events that occurred, a particular area that people don't have the same event or the same effect from. So in the accident analysis, if you would go back and talk to people prior to putting the mat down, there are multiple slip and fall, trip and fall areas on that in the space where that tile was broken and some were just a trip, loss of balance, but a no fall situation and some were a fall. The person got back up and continued their job, you know, never got reported. So maybe had they known the significance of this, they would have put a more permanent solution in place prior to. And I think that's the challenge that we're going to talk about here today, is prevention from for a slip and fall piece is much more important than trying to reduce the effect of the hazard itself. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: You want to prevent that potential slip and fall. Maureen Anderson: Right. We want to prevent it. Peter Koch: So, if we think about that, what can we do to prevent a slip and fall event. I'm not going to call it a slip and fall injury because the injury happens from the impact. But what do we do to prevent a slip and fall event? Maureen Anderson: Well, that's the million-dollar question. You can look at the environment and see what changes we can make in the environment. We always say engineer out the risk. Right. That's to make the changes to the environment so that it is less likely that that slip trip and fall will happen. In all reality, you probably can't engineer out every risk. So, then we also talk about the behavior and the person. What can we change on that side? Making people more aware. You know, teaching them techniques if they have to walk on ice or in a slippery environment or make sure they have the right footwear, all of those issues that we can address. So, it's really it has to be sort of a multi-faceted approach. Peter Koch: Sure. So where do you start? So, if you're going to come into a business and they've had some slip and fall events and maybe it's in one particular place, where do you look at first? Maureen Anderson: I look at the whole environment. Generally, I would start with the floor because that's probably one of the biggest problems that I'm looking at. I'm looking at the type of floor. Is it appropriate for that situation? You know, if you're in an environment where we know there's going to be wet, slippery items like water or grease, the floor needs to be designed for that. So, it would be slip resistant. And then you have to look at the maintenance of that environment. Certainly, with cleaning of floors, we know that that's a big issue. I worked once with a fast food restaurant and they had a fryolator. So that's a high grease splattering of grease environment. But their cleaning regimen left a lot to be desired because what they were doing during the day was, they were just taking a wet mop. I don't even think with any product on it. And they were just mopping the area. So, what they were effectively doing was what we call painting. They were pushing the grease from that area to all other areas. So now that if they went to the back room to pick up some more cups to fill the dispenser, they wouldn't think that they were in a greasy environment, but they might be hitting a very slippery environment. So. Peter Koch: That's interesting. Maureen Anderson: They were really pushing it apart. What's interesting in that place, they had very high standards for wherever a customer was - the other side of the counter. They did a wonderful job of cleaning out there. But back in the very busy kitchen where the employees were, which is where our concern is, their standards were not quite up to snuff. I would say. Peter Koch: It may be well-intentioned. So, they did have a cleaning practice, that. Maureen Anderson: They did have a cleaning practice, but it was it was sort of based on visual. So, if they saw, you know, enough cut up, lettuce that ended on the floor, they would say, oh, time to clean. And they would just get out the mop and give it a quick mop. But it was really not adequate. And they were making it worse in some situations. Their intention was good, but what they were doing was not very good. Peter Koch: Sure. And that painting practice that you mentioned there unintentionally, because they might not know, they think they're asked cleaning what they're supposed to. But that connection that I'm actually moving the hazard from right where I would expect it to, where I am not going to expect it. So that's an interesting part to that. Maureen Anderson: And we see that a lot with mats actually coming into a building. Right. They put a walk off mat. But if it is not the adequately sized, the person might be taking some dirt, some ice off, but it may continue on beyond it. So, the hazard used to be within the first two feet of entering the building. Now they've put a walk off mat that maybe is only six feet, but they've moved that risk now to the end of the mat. They've just really pushed the problem down. Peter Koch: So, them thinking the mat would be adequate to remove the contaminant from the outside, but it's not really long enough for wide enough for a robust enough to do the job for the traffic. Maureen Anderson: Might do a great job at the summer months, which are dry and maybe it's just some dust and dirt that are coming in. But in the wet seasons they're bringing in a lot more water. And if the mat is not properly sized or designed, they may just be pushing the risk factor further in. Peter Koch: So that's an interesting thought. I wonder how many of our businesses or our listeners here have mats at their entrances as you come in and how long they are, and do they know if it's doing the right job? Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: It'd be interesting. Maureen Anderson: They need to ask those questions when they get the mats. Peter Koch: They do. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: And your mat companies, your suppliers should be able to help you in a general way. But they don't always know your traffic patterns. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: How many people will be coming in and out? Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: So, you have to do some work to figure that out, too. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: And I think the telltale sign. And especially if you're looking at either a wet contamination from water, ice or snow or sand or dirt, is what is the floor look like immediately after the mat? Within the next three to four feet, Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: Does it stay relatively clean and dry. Or does it get tracked up? Maureen Anderson: Right. Right. There's usually some visual indication that there's the risk ha - you know, has been moved along. Peter Koch: Sure. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: Yeah. So, you're looking at the environment or the surface specifically. And you reference earlier that the flooring or the surface should be having some sort of non-skid or non-slip factor to it. Maureen Anderson: Right. It should. Peter Koch: So how do you know? Maureen Anderson: So, some floors, flooring materials. When you purchase them, will have specified what the coefficient of friction is or whatever. So, they will have some indication on them whether they're adequate for that location. It should be designed as flooring material. So sometimes you'll see people will use wall tile on a floor or something like that, that is completely inadequate. So, it needs to have real flooring materials down, they're properly installed, properly cleaned. Peter Koch: So that's a great point. So, thinking about if you're looking to replace a floor or you're you know, maybe you're fortunate enough to build a new facility or to renovate an older facility to work with your supplier. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: And not just think about it from how does it look in the space, but how will it function in the space? Maureen Anderson: Yes. Yeah. That used to be a big problem with some financial institutions that wanted to present this sort of image of, you know, marble. Let's say they wanted the marble floors, which are notoriously slippery because they wanted the look. So, but there are some aftermarket products that you can put on some sort of anti-skid products that will add a little almost like grit to it. There are products you can put on aftermarket to help if you have inadequate flooring, but it's best right from the get-go to plan for the right flooring in the right situation. Peter Koch: So, if you have the opportunity plan for it, install the appropriate flooring. But if you don't and you're looking at it retrospectively. So, it's already installed. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: You're coming in as a new maintenance person and it's not in there forever. Maybe go back to the manufacturer and find out. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: Is this the right surface? Maureen Anderson: Is this the right surface for this situation? Peter Koch: And then how long has it been there? Because where will also have an effect on how slip resistant the surface is. Maureen Anderson: Yes. So, a slip resistant surface when it first goes in may be adequate, but over time, the roughness on it could be worn down. You know, if you're taking heavy carts over it like that and wearing grooves into it, that can be a lot of other problems that happen to a surface over time. So, you do need to look at that. Peter Koch: So that condition of the surface is a great key thing to be able to take a look at when you're in there. Maureen Anderson: And that's why we are talking about, mats before. Mats have a limited life. They're not meant to last hundreds of years or whatever. But you have to look at the mat to make sure it doesn't have curling edges, that it's not worn through. So, you have to look at all those issues. And sometimes actually the issue with mats with our aging population, you don't want something that is going to stop people short. So, a lot of older people do a more shuffling step. So sometimes something that's too grippy or too thick of a pile can actually cause a tripping hazard for an older population. Peter Koch: Interesting. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: So, knowing not only what surface is necessary and then thinking at it, I need the most non-skid surface or non-slip surface I could have. But then tempering that with who and what they're going to be doing. Maureen Anderson: What they're going to be doing. Peter Koch: That's a great thought. So, there is some public safety in there as well if you have guests coming to your facility as well as the employee side of the safety. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: Very good. Very good. And I think too with that match change out part, a lot of the suppliers they're going to have as part of the lease process for those mats. Have a change out and you can vary how often it happens based on the traffic that goes through there. Maureen Anderson: And you should have a plan for that for maintenance. But, you know, to switch it over a little bit to office ergonomics, because I do a lot of office, ergo evals and I've seen a big increase in anti-fatigue mats being used in dynamic workstations. You know, they're nice, they're cushy. But it's interesting that the chairs generally don't roll over them too well and they provide almost an increased slip, trip hazard. Right. Because they're beveled a little bit to help, but it's a different surface. And so sometimes you do see people sort of tripping over those so sometimes we do something trying to fix one problem and we inadvertently create a whole new problem, one that we didn't foresee. Peter Koch: Yeah. So that's interesting. So how that surface is going to again affect what you're doing in that particular area. Maureen Anderson: Or in that office, you know, because they have the mat and the chair doesn't roll over it. They've pushed the chair aside, creating an obstacle for other people walking by. Yeah. Peter Koch: So, another thing to look at, too, is that transition between materials surface and the surface type. Maureen Anderson: Anytime you have a transition from one surface to another, you're at an increased risk for slip, trip and fall. Because we walk, we sort of - you don't even think about it, but you're the length of your stride. How you walk. You kind of figure it out and you switch to a different surface. And momentarily, you know, it's a change. And if you're not thinking about it, you're busy thinking about other things. You could be at an increased risk for a fall. So, if you're walking, I'd say on carpet and then you switch to that greasy floor you're walking very comfortably on the carpet, you're gonna hit that greasy floor and you're gonna slip, trip and fall. Peter Koch: You're expecting a particular motion or movement of the foot. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: Increases or decreases based on that. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: Interesting. And that's going to increase or decrease based on the footwear that you have as well. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: So, you've talked about before that polished marble tile in the middle of the bank or… Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: The attorney’s firm because it connotes a particular. Maureen Anderson: Look and feel that the architects love. Right. Peter Koch: And you want to come in. But if I'm coming in with a patent leather shoe with a hard leather soul. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: And it's been raining outside. That that could be a very slippery place to be. Maureen Anderson: It could be a very slippery place to be. And I mean, you have some control over footwear. Certainly, if you have a footwear policy within a company, you can dictate what people should be wearing at work. It gets a little harder, I think, in a professional environment, like an accounting firm or a law firm. It's very tough to dictate that everyone has to wear flat black shoes. You know, that might not go over too well. Peter Koch: Sure. But again, there is a lot there's been a ton of change in the technology of footwear out there as well. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Yes. Peter Koch: So, you may be able to find something that looks very much like a high end. Maureen Anderson: very professional. Yeah. Peter Koch: Yeah. But has a lot of slip resistant qualities. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Yeah. And it's true. Peter Koch: So, on the footwear side, education may be beneficial for the employees that are there. So, getting to think outside the box a little bit, not just to go to this one either brand or supplier, but there's other things out there. See what's there that might help you. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: Stay upright. Maureen Anderson: Different styles of shoes. But certainly, things like, you know, making sure the heel is secured in women's shoes, know not flip flop or mules or whatever you call those shoes that people are more likely to tip out of. Peter Koch: Or crocs. I mean, people wear crocs often, or at least they used to. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: Wear them a lot. In many different areas and. Maureen Anderson: I think they're coming back in style again. I think they've got another time this summer. So. Peter Koch: They are super comfy, but they're not always the best from a slip and fall or a support standpoint. Maureen Anderson: Right. Right. Peter Koch: If you think about the footwear now, we talked a little bit about the environment and the surface that we're looking at. What are some of the other things about the environment that could impact the? The slip and fall risk factors? Maureen Anderson: Certainly, the lighting, right. And poor lighting. You can't often see a hazard. So that can be a big factor, especially outdoors. Right. Which the lighting is going to change outdoors. But even indoors, if there's slippery spots or worn spots or whatever. If you have poor lighting, people can't see the risk factor. They might not. You know, if you have poor lighting, you often can't detect changes in elevation. So little lips on between flooring surfaces, slight steps, one step up. All of those become huge. Peter Koch: And that interaction between poor lighting and our aging workforce in America. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: As you get older, you have more challenges seeing contrast. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: So, in a dimly lit area where a 20-year-old might be very easily are able to see the transition, the 60-year-old might have a very challenging time seeing the transition. So, lighting can be a big, big piece in raising the awareness of our workforce about some of the challenges or the potential slip, trip and fall hazards. Maureen Anderson: And glare is also a part in lighting as people get older. Glare tends to cause more problem and can impact what they see also. Peter Koch: So how it interacts, how lighting interacts with the surface so great. We went from a dimly lit area to a. Hugely lit area. Maureen Anderson: Right. Overly bright. Peter Koch: More light than you need, and it's now you have a polished concrete floor that everyone can see that reflects the sun. Maureen Anderson: Right. Right. So, we can get some glare problems there. And so, it's not easy. Peter Koch: Unintended consequences sometimes. So, thanks, Maureen. And we'll continue with more discussion with Maureen in just a moment. But now it's time to take a short break. We'll be right back.   **********************   Peter Koch: Welcome back to the Safety Experts podcast. Today, we're talking with Maureen Anderson, safety consultant at MEMIC. So, let's jump back in with some more questions. Maureen, we've been discussing how to prevent slip and fall events. And we've talked about all sorts of things. We've talked about the surface. We've talked about how the person interacts with that surface, many different things. What are some tools that a business owner or maybe even a supervisor might have to assess their workplace to identify slip and fall hazards? Maureen Anderson: Well, MEMIC has some great tools. The Safety Director, which is our website for these types of checklists and other items, we have a wonderful checklist that a person could use to evaluate. It can be used in two situations when they know they have a problem. Let's say they've had people get injured from falling. They can use this checklist to help focus where they need to take action. But even if you're not in that environment, maybe you've had some near misses. You've noticed some people slipping and tripping and falling or you've heard people complain about it. You can use the checklists like this to go through and help bring some focus to where you need to look at a problem. Peter Koch: That's cool. So, you can use that checklist. If you are trying to evaluate a space that you have known slip and fall problems. So can help dial you into what you might need to change. Can you, and I think what I heard you say too is, you can also use the checklist to determine if there are any challenges in your workplace, even if you haven't had a slip and fall. Maureen Anderson: Yes. And actually, that's where I would love to see people focus is before you have the injuries. Right. To know if you if you go through a checklist and you're looking at things and you see that, you know, your mats are inadequate or they're worn, you know, maybe in the back of your mind you were thinking about that. But when you sometimes use a checklist, you see it in black and white. You're like, huh, this is a problem waiting. You know, this is a risk factor that's going to we're gonna have an injury and we could take care of it in a very low cost, easy method. Now, before we have the problem. Peter Koch: So that's a great way to use that checklist. So, talk to me a little bit more about the checklist. So, what are the areas that it looks at and how does it help us point towards a solution? Maureen Anderson: Okay. So, we call it S.A.F.E, which is an acronym S.A.F.E Surface Awareness Footwear Environment. So essentially the checklist goes through those four areas and it has, you know, maybe a dozen or so questions in each area so that you can look at each one. Peter Koch: Cool. What would it be looking for? If you're looking at the surface section of it. So, what are some examples of that the checklist points you towards? Maureen Anderson: So, a lot of it, Right. And we've sort of talked about it a little bit when we're talking about the condition of the surface. We're talking about the cleaning. We're talking about obstacles, you know, clutter and the environment. You know, if those office chairs are all pushed out into, you know, a hallway or, you know, the space between cubicles and that's providing a place that people could trip up on. So Peter Koch: OK, so great. So, it's really trying to break down the surface into some particular components that you might be able to address. So, you know, we talked about this, too, but maybe it's contamination. What might be on the floor? Maureen Anderson: What's on the floor? Exactly. Peter Koch: Could be the surface itself is it does. Did it actually start as a slip resistant flooring or did it start as a wall tile? That looked nice. And we just put we just put it in place. Maureen Anderson: Because it looked nice. Yeah. Peter Koch: So, trying to look at what are the potential hazards based on the type of flooring or type of surface. The condition is at worn and is it broken? Maureen Anderson: But it also goes into some other interesting areas just, you know, like ramps and stairways and the condition of those. Peter Koch: Nice. And so, you would actually look at ramps and stairways as the same way you would look at a flat floor. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: Because you still have to look at the condition. You have to look at what's might be on it. Is it slip resistant tread on? Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: On the stair or is it a coating on the ramp? And how are we using it? Maureen Anderson: Exactly. Peter Koch: Neat. That's pretty cool. So that gives us a place to focus. And then if you're checking it off, it's given you the that it's satisfactory or it's unsatisfactory. Maureen Anderson: Exactly. Yeah. Peter Koch: Great. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. And if you don't know how to approach fixing the problem, you can always contact someone at MEMIC. We have many safety consultants here who would love to work with our policyholders because that's where our passion is on preventing injuries. And if we can get to that and help people implement something that might prevent an injury, we would be more than happy to do that. Peter Koch: So, this would be a great place to start. Like to go through the checklist and look at what the issues are and then maybe contact your lost control consultant or contact MEMIC for some suggestions of what to do with these factors. Maureen Anderson: So, to help focus so you're not just coming to MEMIC and saying, you know, I think that there's a problem, but I don't know what the problem is. You know, or I want to prevent injuries, but I don't know how. So, it would give you a place to start and you'd be a lot more focused. Peter Koch: That's great. Let's take another one of those four areas. We talked a little bit about surface when it looks at awareness. What are the things that... because awareness is a really big word, and so it's very inclusive of a lot of things? So, what is it looking for this, the checklist looking for when it's focusing us towards awareness? Maureen Anderson: So, right, it is a big area, we're talking about awareness. There are certain tools you can use to help people become aware of risk factors like slippery when wet signs. Right. Something like that. If you have a temporary problem with the floor, visible barriers, if you're trying to block things off, if you're trying to prevent a person from walking over that broken tile, you know, that is trying to bring awareness to the problem. Leading edges of stairs, sort of the nose is on stairs sometimes might be painted a different color to bring awareness to a potential risk factor there. So those are all things that you could put in to help bring awareness to a situation where you want someone to be paying more attention to the floor. Peter Koch: Great. So, it looks at the area and how the company is what the company is doing to help heighten the awareness of the worker in those spaces. Maureen Anderson: Right. Exactly. A lot of those are temporary use. Though you have to be careful because you can't keep people on 100 percent high awareness, emergency awareness all the time. Our brain just doesn't work that way. Right. So, we, if you are always warning people that the floor is slippery when wet, they tend to ignore it after a while, because in a way we all know that floors are slippery when wet. So, you have to be careful that you don't over warn people to the point where they get that fatigue and they just tune it all out. Peter Koch: Right. That's a really great point on the signage side. So, using signage to make people aware is not a solution to the problem. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: So, it's one aspect of looking at it and really signage is temporary. So, it should only be present when the hazard. Maureen Anderson:  When the hazard is there. Peter Koch: Yeah. Peter Koch: And if the hazard is always present, then you really have to look at some other solutions to adjust. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Pete Koch: Hazard. Maureen Anderson: Yes. I had one great example. It was a hospital and they had had some slips, trips and falls in their parking lot for their employees when they came in, often early in the morning here in New England, we get a freeze and thaw thing going on. Right. That's very difficult to always be on top of. And so, they had these signs that tell you when we're in freezing conditions. Right. That there might be a hazard, but they didn't keep them out there all the time. And I think they had for the employee parking lot to two signs, I think. But they had six different post. Posts or cheap signs were a little bit more expensive and they would randomly move them around. And that kind of prevented people from getting that fatigue. The sign fatigue that, you know, it's always slippery when wet. It's always, you know, slippery when it's freezing out. So, they would kind of move things around. And I thought that was a great solution. And they did see a decrease in the amount of slips that they had out in that parking lot, an employee parking lot. Peter Koch: Just a little reminder sometimes goes a long way. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. And I've had people do things like e-mails. I know I worked with one school where someone in their office would randomly sort of blast out a note in certain conditions. Peter Koch: Nice. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: Yeah. So, I think that's especially when you're working inside all day. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: The weather is one way in the morning. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: Then something else in the evening. You leave for work or the afternoon when you leave for lunch. So, when are people coming and going? What's the, how is the environment going to affect you, and how can we raise or heighten your awareness about a potential hazard? Maureen Anderson: But you just have to be careful you don't overdo it. Right. So, you can't keep people always in that state of heightened emergency. Our brains just don't work that way. Peter Koch: Yeah, totally not. So great, so we've got surface and then we've touched on awareness. So, what are the other the last two areas we are looking at. Maureen Anderson: So, footwear is something that is easily changed. And in the grand scheme of things, footwear is not very expensive. Generally, everyone in our culture here in the United States wears footwear to work. I know when other cultures, other parts of the world, that may not be true, but generally people always have some type of footwear on. So, you want to make sure that the footwear is appropriate for the environment and for the task. So that's probably the biggest thing we can say right there. Slip resistant shoes are highly recommended in environments that we know are going to have slip, trip and fall hazards like kitchens, hospitals, certainly schools have that aspect to it. The footwear has to be appropriate for the for the environment. Peter Koch: So how do you know if an item of footwear is slip resistant or not? Maureen Anderson: Well, it should say that it's slip-resistant. When you purchase it, if it is designed for that environment. Peter Koch: Okay. So that should be on the tag box or maybe there is a standard. I think like an ANSI standard maybe. Or... Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: ASTM standard for slip resistance as well. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Yeah. Peter Koch: Awesome. So, when we're looking at it, it actually goes right back to understanding the job and how it affects the person to be able to identify what type of footwear is going to be appropriate for the job that's being done. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: Because the outdoor shoe is not always appropriate for indoor work. Maureen Anderson: That is true. Yes. And again, especially in environments where there is ice and snow... Peter Koch: Or even slippery kitchens as well. Maureen Anderson: Yes, Yeah. To have the appropriate footwear. I think it's often probably or it can be a problem in the office environment where we generally don't think of people needing slip resistant shoes and people dress often more for fashion than for safety. That that can be difficult. Peter Koch: Yeah. Fashion versus function. And I know a recommendation in some of the companies that I work with that are primarily office wanting to help keep people safe on their way into work and then back out if they're going for lunch or even at the end of the day, the recommendation is to have two pair of shoes. So, one that you wear from your car to the office and then you'll have a pair of office appropriate shoes. You're not wearing your winter boots all day. Maureen Anderson: Exactly. Peter Koch: Because that's uncomfortable. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: And I know one company had more success in that because they actually had a place then for people to store their shoes. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: Because I don't know about you but having a closed office space with a bunch of stinky winter boots is not always a pleasant environment. So. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: They were able to have a place for employees to go, change their shoes, put them in a locker, and then had them then come to their workstation afterwards. Maureen Anderson: That's a great idea. Peter Koch: They were really thoughtful in that whole process. Maureen Anderson: That's wonderful, too, to allow people that flexibility. Peter Koch: Yeah. Do you think condition of footwear has anything to do with the slip and fall prevention? Maureen Anderson: Well, it can certainly shoes do not last forever. And when they get in poor repair, sometimes they will lose their slip resistance. They'll be scuffed out. Right. They don't have that traction anymore. That can be an issue. And then the general condition. If they're loose and not secure to your feet, for a while, there was a fashion of people not tying their sneakers and things like that. Those issues could have a big impact on how the weather, the footwear can perform as designed and whether it's going to work as advertised. Peter Koch: Sure. Yeah. And that's a hard one, I think, for companies to manage the condition of people's footwear. And it might go to education, just having getting people to understand that even though this might be a super comfortable pair of shoes right now. Because it's 10 years old and there's really no support left to them. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: They're not going to help you stay on your feet all day and stay upright when you're moving from place to place. Maureen Anderson: Right. And as a woman, I can attest that I do not always wear flat shoes that are… you know, black lace up flat shoes with highly slip resistant soles. I do dress for fashion sometimes. So that is an issue. But I think as a company, you could insist that they are secured at the ankle. Right. That that no loose ankle. And if you saw shoes that were just, you know, a clear hazard. I think that the company could guide a person to a better choice of footwear. Peter Koch: Yes. Going back to job appropriateness. So, looking at the job and the requirements of the job. So maybe it's a closed toed shoe with a secured heel, provide support maybe above the ankle or below the ankle depending on what you're doing and slip resistance is recommended. Those could all be guidelines for your general footwear policy. Maureen Anderson: The general footwear policy. Yeah, I think, you know, in specific situations where you need steel toe or things like that, I think it's much clearer to have a very specific footwear policy issue, but even a general footwear policy. I think every organization should have a general footwear policy. Peter Koch: Just stating that it needs to be appropriate for the environment. And then when you get into like a mixed task business that you have an office area, you might have manufacturing the background or something else that's happening around that. The general footwear covers policy, covers the entirety of the business. And then you can have specific requirements based on task, actually. Maureen Anderson: Yeah, exactly. Peter Koch: Awesome. So, then what's the last one? Because environments and an interesting one to address as well. Maureen Anderson: The environment often gets tough. Kind of how we maintain the environment, what we can change within the environment. Some things are within our control. Some things are not within our control. So, we look at things like ice melt chemicals, whether it's shoveled and cleared and things like that. Outside of that, whether there are cords running across the walkway and whether there's other obstacles and clutter comes under that environment. I have seen some situations where offices are so cluttered, I don't know how people are getting through their workday without having... Peter Koch: Sure. Maureen Anderson: ...Lots of problems. Peter Koch: So that might look at. It sounds like it's looking at housekeeping. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: It's looking at your maintenance practices and policies. If you have a weather event, when do the areas get maintained, which could be challenging because if you've contracted that out with someone to shovel or to plow to salt or sand, depending on where you are, when does that happen? Does it happen when your employees are coming in or does it happen two hours after they get there? Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: So that could be a fairly sizable challenge. So, looking at how the environment is affected by your maintenance practices and are the practices adequate for the environment that you have? Maureen Anderson: I had a situation with schools, with a school bus driver who come in quite early and the guideline was actually the same time they were doing the plowing in the lots. So, they were coming to work sometimes before the lot was completely cleared out. Yeah. So that was an issue that they were trying to address to get it down to when do bus drivers arrive and has the lot been cleared and sanded or whatever before the bus drivers get there. Peter Koch: Sure, that that's interesting, too. It's almost a time study that you would be doing. For what entrances and exits are your employees using? Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: When are they coming and going? And are we maintaining those areas appropriately? And if you're finding that there's some areas that people are using either frequently or infrequently and they're not being maintained during that time frame, then you have to change your practices. So, it sounds like that checklist will help point you towards some of the deficiencies or on the other side. Look at where you're doing really well, because that's also a tool that you can use in the ultimate prevention when I'm looking at my business. Maureen Anderson: Mm hmm. Peter Koch: And I haven't had a lot of issues. The question always is why? Because you want to be able to replicate that over time. So, this might be able to help not only look at the deficiencies but look at a successful business and find out what areas they're doing well in and how can I take those practices and bring them to another part of my company. Or maybe I purchase a new business or... Maureen Anderson: Have multiple locations. We you know, we run into that where it's higher, all the injuries happening at one location and not the other location and trying to really break it down and dig down deep and figure out why. Peter Koch: Yeah, that's fantastic. Maureen Anderson: I was just going to say that sometimes a person at a place may be working. I'm thinking of schools in particular where you have some of the facilities staff where they're working outside, they're working inside and the constant and then they're driving. So, they have a lot of different environments and trying to find footwear that works. And all of those environments have been really difficult. Peter Koch: Very challenging, yeah, it's very challenging. So, I know there's a lot of products out there that you can use that are really designed either for someone who's working outside all the time or someone who is working inside all the time. And there are some that are that can be mixed use. But have you found any tools that are out there that can be used? Maureen Anderson: Well, the gripper is that you put on your shoes or boots. They generally go, they're kind of elastic and you put on over the heels your shoe to provide increased traction. Those have been wonderful and have really helped a lot and they have different versions of them. Some are made so that you can drive because sometimes they if you don't get those ones, then it can actually be an increased risk for drivers because your foot will stick on the gas or stick on the brake. That can be a problem. There’re the ones that sort of rotate over and I've forgotten it's a one... Peter Koch: That's right. The K1 mid soul, ice cleats. Maureen Anderson: Yes. And those have been used with some success at some schools because you rotate the device to the top or to the bottom of your soul depending on what you're doing. And that has been helpful for schools where they're working outside and they come in, but they don't want to track like over their beautiful gym floor, parquet gym floor. They can't damage that, though. So, a device like that can be used in a lot of different environments. Peter Koch: Yeah, that's a great solution when we start to think about when we find deficiencies or challenges. So, we know that we've got a surface issue because we're working outdoors, and we also have a footwear challenge because we have to work outside and inside. Maureen Anderson: Inside. Right. Peter Koch: You've got to have great lighting. We've got good maintenance practices, but we have to be able to be in both areas. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: Finding a solution that someone can use and have on their person. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: When it's necessary. Maureen Anderson: And not feel such a burden between switching, because that was some of the older solutions we had. And we find out from the facilities people I don't want to have to sit down and, you know, change my shoes every time I come in and out because I'm only in for a few minutes and then I'm going back out. If you make the solution so burdensome, they will not use it. Peter Koch: Yeah. That's it. That's a really great point. So, I think it does highlight that even though footwear is an easy place to focus, you didn't really have a great footwear policy. You might even bring to have a partnership with a footwear provider that you're helping provide discounted good footwear to your staff. It's not always the best place to put all of your efforts. You'll have... Maureen Anderson: It's part of the solution. Peter Koch: Yes. You'll have a greater success if you address the surface first. Maureen Anderson: Yes. Peter Koch: And have appropriate footwear to when you interact with the surface, allow for good awareness when the surface changes and then have great maintenance practices for when you have environmental issues right there. Maureen Anderson: It's gonna be a whole deal, the whole package. You have to look at it all. There are no easy solutions. Peter Koch: So, what's the acronym again that we're using to identify all these things. Maureen Anderson: SAFE. S A F E, which stands for surface, awareness, footwear and environment. Peter Koch: Pretty cool. So, we can look at all four of those things and really break down a process of how we can not only identify but focus in on those areas that we have to fix. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: Or that we're doing well with. Maureen Anderson: Right. Peter Koch: Very good. So, I really appreciate all your insight, Maureen. That's great. Thank you very much for being here today. We're about to wrap up this week's Safety Experts podcast. Do you have any final comments or thoughts for our listeners? Maureen Anderson: I'm still learning so much. And that's the amazing thing. It's the world is pretty complicated. And I'm always coming up against new situations that I had never thought about. So that makes it very interesting for me, for businesses. I'm sure you're always coming up with different situations. Love to continue the conversation with people. Peter Koch: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a great thing, too, to leave our listeners with, is that it's a constantly changing environment that we work in and that we live in. So, the assessment process with one of the checklists or just observations of what's happening are getting input and feedback from your staff are key, are all keyways to help keep on top of this. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. And a lot of times, you know, people say, oh, you're the safety experts, and we are the safety experts, but we're not the experts in your business. And the policy holder’s business. And a lot of times they may have reasons for doing things a certain way that we really have to dig at to make sure that we come up with a solution that's going to work. Peter Koch: Sure. Maureen Anderson: I work from a safety perspective, but work in their business. Peter Koch: I always tell people that I can keep you safe. Maureen Anderson: Yeah. Peter Koch: You do what I tell you. No one will ever get hurt, but you'll never get any work done. Maureen Anderson: Exactly, right. Peter Koch: You need to work together to figure out the solution that's going to best balance safety quality. Maureen Anderson: Exactly. Peter Koch: Beautiful. Well, thanks again, Maureen, for joining us today. And to all of our listeners out there, if you have any questions for our guests or like to hear more about a particular topic from a certain person on our podcast, please e-mail us at [email protected]. This podcast is presented by MEMIC, a leader in workers compensation insurance and a company committed to health and safety of all workers. To learn more about how MEMIC can help your business, please visit MEMIC.com. Don't forget about our upcoming workshops and webinars and to look at where those dates are and what those topics are. Also, go to MEMIC.com when you want to hear more from the safety experts, you can find us on iTunes or right here at MEMIC.com. And if you have a smart speaker, you can tell it the play The Safety Experts podcast and you can pick today's episode or a previous one. You can also enable the Safety Experts podcast skill on Alexa to receive safety tips and advice from any of our episodes. We really appreciate you listening and encourage you to share this podcast with your friends and co-workers. Let them know that they can find it on their favorite podcast player by searching for Safety Experts. Thanks again for tuning in to the Safety Experts podcast. And remember, you can always learn more by subscribing to the podcast at MEMIC.com/podcast.     Resources/Articles/People Mentioned in Podcast MEMIC - https://www.memic.com/ Peter Koch - https://www.memic.com/workplace-safety/safety-consultants/peter-koch Maureen Anderson - https://www.memic.com/workplace-safety/safety-consultants/maureen-anderson A.F.E - https://www.memic.com/workplace-safety/safety-net-blog/2018/january/slip-and-fall-prevention-the-safe-way-part-1 Temperature Indicator Postmount Signs - https://www.accuform.com/safety-sign/freezing-temperature-when-blue-MSTF525 ANSI, America National Standards Institute - https://www.ansi.org/ ASTM - https://www.astm.org/ K1 Mid Sole Ice Cleats - https://geroline.com/