Evan Manship Gives You the Inside Scoop on Real Estate Wholesaling

In this episode, Evan Manship from Mainstay Property Group gives us the low-down on all things wholesaling: how it works, who it's good for, why you might want to go this route, and how to be successful with this strategy.   Mainstay Property Group www.mainstaypropertygroup.com https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-3oqmkbkyW6ilsVm57h0qg ---- Transcript Tom: Greetings, and welcome to the remote real estate investor. On this episode, we're speaking with Evan Manship, who's part of the Maine state Property Group. In this episode we're going to talk about wholesaling. We're going to be talking about their process and sourcing deals, as well as the process on the buyer side and how you can use wholesaling groups to help in your acquisition process. All right, let's do it.   Before we get going, I want to notify everybody about a promotion running with roofstock Academy roofstock Academy is our all in one program that includes over 50 hours of on demand lectures, five hours of one on one coaching, as well as all kinds of materials plus access to our private forum. The coupon code is remote pod with this coupon you're going to get $50 off your enrollment fee. And with that enrollment on top of everything I said before, you're going to get 20 $500 of marketplace credits to use on roof stock calm as well as a five year no questions asked full refund guarantee.   Michael: Hey Evan, before we jump into things here, can you give us a little bit of background on yourself who you are as an individual where you're from and how you got into the real estate game.   Evan: Thanks for the time boys appreciate it very much.   Yes sir, I will say born and raised I was a landlord when I first got started. Realize that you know there's other ways to make money than just buying and holding or You know kind of started digging in more and more to this and we've ramped up a nice little wholesale Group here in Indianapolis and Louisville, Kentucky and Cincinnati on Monday effectively so love the Midwest and love wholesaling.   Tom: And you mentioned in the background you have your your brother there is this a family business as well as he working on some different stuff   Evan: Man a lot like wholesaling it kind of blossomed into that. So it wasn't my mother's a teacher My father is a I guess he used to be a waiver for Eli Lilly a big pharmaceutical manufacturer here in Indianapolis and clay who's over there someplace blended into the chair is my business partner my best friend My other other half and ironically my father now works for our group as does my younger brothers. We've got 16 folks here on staff and four of them to share my last name which is kind of neat so I work with my twin brother my baby brother my father every single day I'm the luckiest guy in the world.   Tom: I'd love to hear a little bit more how transitioning into it because you know sounds like your family wasn't as much into real estate or wholesale I'd love to hear how you found your way into this space and brought across the the rest of the family with you.   Evan: I would argue I'm still finding my way so we'll save found for another couple years here. I'll keep it as brief as I can. It's a long long long story but my my twin brother and I graduated from Xavier University in Cincinnati both finance guys graduate and finance degree and you know we've worked with twin brothers right so it was you know, we went to the same school study the same thing look the same talk the same hunger with the same friends and when we graduate from school is one of those things was like shit, this is our eminent twin divorce, you know, you're you're going to go to Seattle, and we're going to Jacksonville and we'll see Thanksgiving type thing.   Well, we both applied for one job and Indianapolis apiece and naturally we both got it. So my first job out of school was property tax consulting, I was doing valuation on multifamily structures and I was just some schmuck, I knew how to talk to people and had a background in finance.   Yeah, so yeah, my job was nationally to to say to people tax the tax money, which is even that's a different that's a conversation for a couple cocktails. But my background is saving people money on taxes and arguing professionally, which my wife, my twin brother got hired by a hedge fund here in Indianapolis that was placing private money for massive acquisitions, retail centers, again, office towers, industrial stuff, whatever. So Clay was on that side of things, I was on the acquisition side of things and said screw it, you know, we're doing this professionally for these massive structures already, why don't we just look into you know, potentially doing this on our own.   So we started buying a couple rentals and when we started raising our private money we found some guy on bigger pockets which I'm sure you guys are very aware of. So whether he's naive or stupid or optimistic, or all three this guy said yeah, you know, I trust you guys. You guys can you know borrow 30 grand on my money and max out your credit cards and get this deal rockin and rollin. We're all into our deal for 33, 34 grand our very first private money deal and appraised at 90 grand you know 90 days later, and he was like shit, I don't want to do what I'm doing right now. I want to lend you money I want to do what you're doing how do I effectively do what you're doing I trust you relationships that trust your ability to find the deal just find me a deal I'll buy from you. And that's how I went to the wholesaling gala just find this guy deal and make six or seven grand which is a lot of money and and and here we are.   So we'll set our first deal in May of 2014 may 13 of 2014 which is coming up on our seven year anniversary here and the rest of the history of wholesaling ever sounds.   Tom: Amazing. What's the acronym like? Explain it to me like I'm five. Can you give the 15 to 32nd definition of what is a wholesale when someone says I wholesale like what is it like just kind of process-wise   Evan: Yeah, I'll do it in 30 because 15 stuff if you're a wholesaler you are essentially milking a cow instead of selling milk at the grocery store. When you want to have a glass of milk or or we'll pour some milk in your cereal. You don't go find a cow and milk it process of pasteurizer whatever, you go to the grocery store and buy a gallon 2% so that's what we do we essentially go through the hassle of finding the cow milking the cow, making sure the farm is healthy, it's grass fed and all that other jazz so you can get a nice big bowl of 2% beans farm fed milk at your local Meijer, Kroger, whatever.   Tom: I love that. I love the analogy. I'd never heard that analogy.   Michael: Perfect. So we do that with real estate. That's essentially what we do we take all the headache out of finding good deals for people playing simple,     Michael: Man Evan, I have to love that analogy. But I'm curious to know if somebody is working with an agent You know, that's really what agents do is they go and find deals. So what what value does a wholesaler bring to the equation? What do they do and that agents aren't?   Evan: That's an awesome question. And to further my my analogy here is you know, anyone can go find a cow anyone can buy a cow. You know, finding the right cow at the right time is really what all the matters to the person that's buying the milk or manufacturing the milk. But yeah, you're exactly right. You know, good agents find deals, regardless of where they're at wholesalers 99% of the time will do so exclusively off market, they will have different ways of identifying that cow, then your traditional realtor broker might so we spend a ton of time money Blood Sweat tears off market where your real estate broker century 21 REMAX carpenter, whatever it will be just hustling on the market or with people like me to find the best possible deal for you.   Michael: Okay, that makes sense. And so I mean, our wholesaler specific to local markets and really, what are the benefits of using a wholesaler? I mean, what why do wholesalers exist?   Evan: Depends on who you ask. The guy who services Lou Holtz since now I'm not gonna say I'm I'm local, but I service Louisville, Cincinnati in Indianapolis, so call me from the Midwest, Great Lakes region.   No wholesales all over the place. We have folks and contacts in Albuquerque, a couple folks in Juneau, Alaska, Anchorage, you name them, it's all over the place. If you have the ability to find the deal off market, which legally every person in the United States does, you can also whether you're trying to buy or sell or both. That's what we do. So really depends on what your aim is. And if your aim is to find a deal and the cheapest possible manner, by definition that's going to be off market.   So the second it gets to market, everyone in the brother has her eyes on everyone, their brother can bid on it. If you find something off market, you have a better chance of spending less dollars on it. So whether you're in Indianapolis, like myself, or California, Miami, Seattle or Anchorage, if you're off market, chances are even better chances spending less money.   Tom: To continue the animal analogy, I'd love to just to touch quickly on like the sausage factory, right. And there's some terms that I've that I've heard of skip tracing, like what's within the sausage factory of doing wholesaling, and perhaps even sourcing, I think there's a lot of value in finding wholesalers who exactly who are doing all that work up front, I'd love for you to speak a little bit of like, what goes into some of that work of finding these off market deals.   Evan: Man finding the deal is the tip of the spear, obviously, you know, especially in today's market, there's not a huge amount of hustle that goes into selling it, you know, it's a seller's market, so anyone their brother is going to buy the thing. So we tell folks we talked to all the time that are interested in wholesaling, it's you know, all you have to do is find a seller, which is a lot easier than sexy to say on paper, obviously.   But for those of you watching at home, my group will do 25 to 40 deals a month. And we spend a tremendous amount of money on identifying those people qualifying those people making sure they're serious. And I'm getting into the the finish line here. So there's a lot of hustle and finding the seller in today's market, I have to specify today's market specifically, sellers are the tip of the spear. So we do have many, many, many things to identify those sellers, we have a cold call center in the in the Philippines, we have a smaller cold call center here in the States, we have six folks on staff that are lead generation folks, we have SMS presence, a cold call presence, a billboard presence, you name it, we do anything and everything we can do to get people to raise their hand. And once they raise their hand, we'll figure out the rest. But getting people to acknowledge that Yeah, my house might be for sale is the biggest piece of the pie.   Michael: So I'm curious to know, and for all of our listeners, to what types of properties make a good candidate or rather what what types of buyers would make a good candidate for a wholesale deal.   Evan: Yeah. So again, the same, the same reason that you would buy on the market is exactly what you're not going to get and the off market space, then you have to understand the trade offs. And that's why, you know, first time investors, traditionally, a wholesale group is not for you. Because you want to make sure that you're protected by a lot of the means that are on the market, right?   You want your sales disclosure, you want to work with someone that's licensed, do you want to get your inspection and your appraisal and have a long timeframe to close and all this other jazz, and the trade off is you'll pay top dollar for it you'll pay 95 maybe 100 maybe in today's market 105% of what the deal is worth just to have access to a property, where wholesaling is massively different than the aforementioned here is we close in two weeks, maybe three weeks if you're super lucky. And all we do is give you the property. It's up to you to do the due diligence. It's up to you to find the inspector. It's up Due to find the problems, but it's like buying a beer at a bar or a gallon of milk in my previous example, you swipe a debit card and you get what you paid for. And as long as you know what you're looking for, you know where to look for the expiration date to keep this massively overdue analogy running here. If you know look for the expiration date, know what to look for the manufacturer and to make sure you know, it's not some gross stuff of almon milk, something goofy don't know what you're looking for. That's, that's, that's the whole thing. You know what you're looking for you buy it, it's off to the races. So in exchange, you pay considerably less to the tune of 6070 cents on the dollar for that property is worth at in lieu of 105% on market.   Tom: I'm gonna try to just keep beating this analogy to death. So Evan, I like milk. You like milk? Why don't you just drink your own milk? Why are you selling the milk? Why are wholesalers selling it you know, if they're able to get these big discounts?   Evan: Man, this is the million dollar question and one that we get all the damn time. And any good hold of I here's my challenge the folks that are buying milk or consuming milk, if you're not asking that question, you are drinking the wrong milk, or working with the wrong manufacturer? We get this question regularly. Because our deals are that good? Where Why don't you just do this yourself? Explain to me why on earth you would not just keep all this milk yourself?   And there's no real good answer for it. Honestly, we don't I've bought and sold rentals myself, I've flipped plenty of properties myself. And at the end of the day, I don't like being a hypocrite. I don't like sending out a deal and saying, look, look, this is a kick ass deal. You're gonna love You're gonna make all this money, by the way, and I'm keeping all the ones to the best for myself.   So something we encourage a lot of our investors and buyers to do is ask that question if you're, you know, broker who you're buying something on the market with, there's not an investor. Why are you trusting their advice? If the wholesaler you're working with is keeping some deals and selling some deals? Even sketchy? Why, right? That's even worse. I mean, imagine a farmer who's keeping some milk and selling some milk. Why? So what we do is we have a retail shop, all we do is sell milk, we manufacture good milk, we sell damn good milk. And again, just a pound just we're beating this horse right now.   Tom: I love it. Yeah, we're just gonna keep this thing going on.   Michael: This is an amazing analogy.   Evan: Yeah, that's right. So all we do is sell good milk when simple Indianapolis milk Louisville milk, Cincinnati milk and we got torched a couple times, were from folks asking these exact same questions like why don't you just keep it I had no good answer for him. So in 2019, we decided, look, we're done, we're done keeping these things we're all we're gonna do is build around our business that just manufactures and sells good milk. Tom: And there's just like a lot of other kind of operational overhead and keeping a ton and it's huge capital requirements. And that makes sense, Evan.   Evan: It's kind of lame to say that because there's a ton of truth to it, frankly, but you know, oh, it requires a lot of money and a lot of you know, staff also stuff you know, we've even then I don't feel right saying it so while all that's true. I mean, it's we just do what we're good at plain and simple. That's selling damn good milk.   Michael: So can you speak a little bit to the maybe less than perfect reputation that wholesalers have. I think that they kind of get the reputation around the business as someone that's maybe sleazy or someone that's just trying to make a quick buck or they underwrite deals poorly and then they're just they're giving you whatever the leftovers are. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?   Evan: Man, I I'm thrilled you asked that question because we started to realize that again, but same time we stopped buying our own milk in 2018 2019. totally understand, and if any investors buyers, whatever watching this video could not agree more with your negative connotation of wholesaling, especially the seller's market like today, I would tell like we've assigned our office I was wholesaling rashly, anyone can sell a house, anyone can sell a house, retail shop website, broker, anyone can sell our house, but especially when you're out a state or not local, to whatever degree it's extremely important. Yeah, buying a house or buying an asset. And that's what we aim to do.   We encourage folks to have the wholesaler keep some level of skin in the game. For example, in our group, we have an on staff, finance guy went on staff project manager, we've been on staff property manager to the tune where our rehab estimates and every single deal we send out, let's call it you know, 30,000 bucks on a $50,000 house rolling for 80 right at that rehab number comes back at Roland for 90, Roland for 100 and a house that's worth 100 that's that you can do that on the market, you can get all the benefits of being protected by the market then find her some wholesale turd the building is hustling to get this deal close as soon as possible.   So what we do with our folks, and again, this is unique to our group, we make sure that when we estimate a rehab amount, you're protected completely the more that we have them out from our project manager comes back in excess of what was initially discussed with you in the solicitation that we sent, no harm, no foul, you get your earnest money back and we'll go back and do a different deal. So we've done that hundreds and hundreds of times in India now and movable to where folks, you know, agree, look, I'll buy a deal from a lender for 70. And it's worth 100 grand we can I'm not an attorney, I'm not a tax advisor consults for professionals, wherever but you know, in the options, you can agree it's worth 100 and I can prove to you we're going to be 70 who's not buying that deal. And that's where we can protect our investors in that regard.   So we're able to develop a huge buyers list or investors listen that way. But at the same time, you know, I encourage every last little person whether you're wholesaling does what we do or not show me some deals you've done in the area. Show me some deals you've sold us and people who've had success with a rehab to this degree show me you know, a big neighborhood here in Indianapolis is never too cold Fountain Square, show me something in Fountain Square you will sell or someone has had success, any decent wholesaler should be able to show you a little black book and here are my resources here my referrals, here's my success profile. And the second they don't they're either brand new, which is good and bad. Or they suck.   Michael: You know, when you go to the store and there's just like, there's so many choices of milk, you got the dairy farmers and you got you know, there's three different choices calcium, full milk, whole 2% non fat. So how can buyers stand out from all the different milks out there? How can they be different from a buyer perspective, that helps set them apart to help them win deals.   Evan: I love that wee're continuing to do this, by the way I got like any, like owners that hang back here or something just like I've said this for years and years. And you know, it's ironic and it sucks now because it's a seller's market. So buyers have to be unique. They have to be ultra competitive, and they've got to do things a different way. But, you know, much like you know, when you got to use a different analogy here, you know, I'm a married man, I've been married for years in October. And the best thing I did when my wife walked into the bar, I met her out and I was in college. It didn't go right up to her. And I was unique. I was different, you know, I kind of sit back and all the other guys go and get out of the system to where the pork she was annoyed and SWAT those guys away by the time she was done. And she was kind of exhausted by by all these guys that were up at the bar trying to get her to talk to them or whatever.   I was like, Hey, how you doing? I saw you're drinking this Cosmo, whatever over there by the table and how can I buy a drink? And I just had it ready for us walked away no effort, when a weird thing to try and juggle. There's nothing going on. I was totally unique and different. So hi, how you doing? I'm Evan, I'm gonna be over here if you want. And it was different. And that was 2012. And it wasn't as big of a buyer's market maybe for her and not certainly not real estate. But it was different. And it went a long way for the ability for her perceive me so well. I love what our group loves both of our dispositions guys eat this up is when they know what the differentiator is with buyers, whether it's Look, I'll buy something that has a pool in the backyard or I'll buy something it's got a weird foundation problem, I'll buy something it needs can a massive amount of construction, I'll buy something that's occupied, especially in today's environment with COVID that's a big deal.   So being able to identify what your differentiator is huge for the ability for every wholesaler to provide you with massive amounts of value from a deal perspective. And the squeakiest wheel gets the most grease to use and I'm well I'm just nailing these analogies now. But the squeaky wheel gets the grease and that's exactly what happens. The most annoying annoying investors will get the the cream of the crop when it comes to the best possible deal. Find out what you're looking for. And you will be the first person to be tapped for it.   So you're looking at my file I've literally literally I'm not kidding, I literally have dozens of this was just got took them but I have dozens of actual resumes, where people buyers have made physical resumes, hey, I'm not waiting. I'm from India, a third generation is that the other thing I'm looking for three, one and a half 1000 feet in Laurens Township. Well, here's my portfolio I bought into this word, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's wild competitive. And he found a way to differentiate himself and he's been a tremendous assets were buying group.   Tom: It's almost like where I've heard like homebuyers, you know, they send it to the seller like you know, the backstory of their family their dog all that stuff.   Evan: Well, this is this is hilarious and I love my display guy for keeping track of this thing, but it's true, you know? Yeah. Oh, my wife and I wanted to live in the Old North side and we love the third bedroom that faces the corner and oh, we can we're gonna rock our baby girl to sleep there and this and the other thing well, like the people that are really smart are Floyd, Floyd from Maui, right like Floyd literally check this check this out. Like this guy. Yeah, here's what I've done here. The houses I bought, like one of them's from us, you know? You wanna talk about a differentiator it's just one more it's like a lead behind when you go on an appointment or whatever, right? Like leave it on their door it's one more thing to throw away. And so you can see I got I got I got I got doesn't does the same thing. Just one so I hate to be like, super annoying, but like that's, that's one thing. We made a joke on an honor like a Facebook Live than we did back in the day. And we just these things are coming in like letter letters from Santa or whatever.   Tom: There’s probably some guru who like tells people like so just to confirm you, you would say that as net positive. If you're a buyer put this little profile resume and then send it to your wholesalers?   Evan: Yes, to put it very shortly. My thing is this message from from Brendon, you took maybe 20 minutes to put together let's call it yep. And I'll bet I will bet my bottom dollar the scores in the deal. Right And again, it's a seller's market and the second there's a there's a buyers market I'd encourage people like me to reach out to people like you with resumes right? And that's what we have the the assets we do to make that happen. But in today's market, you have to find a way to be a differentiator and that's what allows people   Tom: I love it. And this is like an awesome takeaway. I never thought of that of preparing sort of like a buying resume to show just your kind of proof of concept to your..   Evan: Sounds arrogant like people like just dying to work with our group. It has nothing to do with our group has everything to do with deals.   Tom: Exactly.   Evan: All frickin these people want to just deal so   Tom: Those are some good milk buyers so on. So I got a question. Do you guys service multiple types of milk so there's like, you know, goat's milk cow's milk and multifamily single family apartments. Are you guys exclusively SFR milk or do you have multiple different types of   Evan: Yeah, no, I'm gonna try my best to stick with this and I'll reiterate for folks back home we've lost this analogy A long time ago. For those of you following at home this milk is indicative appeals. And we are essentially manufacturing deals directly from the cow instead of buying them from the grocery store and a 2% gallon. So my group as a wholesale operation we find the cow we, we Milk the Cow we pasteurize the milk and then we sell it to Kroger, Meyer, Whole Foods, whatever so they can sell the gallon of milk to retail people who were buying off the market.   Yes, answer your question directly. Tom. My group works with a ton of different types of deals. And the breakdown we use is 90% of what we do is residential 9% of what we do is multifamily indicating between five and a million doors. And 1% of what we do is commercial so I don't see commercial standalone projects myself from retail or the office building right now. And a self storage thing down the way. But it's very rare for us to get involved in a tremendous amount of commercial we can just find the most arbitrage in residential properties. That's why 90% of American the dollars are allocated toward it.   Michael: That's great. That's great. And I've got a top I've got a Tom, I've got a question for you. I recently so I recently bought my first deal from a wholesaler. And I bought it kind of through unique way I bought it actually with an agent, a buying agent. And then the wholesaler brought him the deal. And so they're helping me rehab it. And I fell victim to something that I think happens to a lot of people and so I want to know a little bit about the mindset that buyers should be going into with buying a deal from a wholesaler. So let me tell you what happened.   So I bought this deal. It was advertised at 57. I got him down to 54 and then we got the inspection back and we got it down to 50. So I'm buying this deal through my IRA and so I needed the original contract that the wholesaler has with the original seller and I saw that the wholesaler has it under contract at 40 grand. So the wholesaler is making 10 grand split commission basically. And before I saw that I was like man 50 grand awesome. I'm thrilled with the deal. The numbers came back good with the ARV and the rehab costs. And then I saw what the wholesaler had on a contract on and I was like, man, he got a screaming deal. Should I have squeezed harder?   And I put this out on Twitter. I'm kind of active on Twitter and people are like no, be stoked. You got a good deal. You should think that wholesaler and I was like Yeah, that makes sense. Everybody's making money. That's a win win win. So how should buyers be thinking about the Commission's that the wholesalers are getting or the spread of the wholesalers making off that deal?   Evan: My biggest wholesale fee is $445,000. We sold a massive, massive part but when we sold a 20-30 unit apartment building in downtown Indianapolis, made a half million bucks then I will tell anyone that I'll show you that settlement statements one of the better days in my life obviously.   And the person that bought that building is one of the richer people in the city there's an absolute deca millionaire. Ridiculous. This is a wild individual frankly, this, really likes tequila, but this guy is a maniac he's a deal maniac and doesn't care what he pays me. The fact I cleared a half million dollars and a couple months is not his issue. He doesn't care he's gonna refinance this thing give it to the kids but in the self directed IRA doesn't make a difference. He doesn't care about how much I make.   That's easy to say when you're the wholesaler but again, you know I challenge folks at anytime you buy anything ever that has a menu, Kroger, wherever you're taking the missus for dinner tonight. childcare. It's you beaten up on price every time you talk about it, right? So why are we any different? We're different because we're not aware we are in a an industry we're negotiating is a large piece of it. Just like buying a new car. You know, it's a it's not a commodity, but it is a commodity.   So I encourage everyone that wants to whine about wholesale fees or commissions or whatever else. Our average fee here is $16,173.19 in Indianapolis. And my biggest fee is $454,000. And we encourage you to not complain about what's on the menu or else you can go find it  yourself. It sounds arrogant, but that's what we milk manufacturers. Do we manufacture milk if you don't like it, go buy from the grocery store.   Michael: I love it.   Tom:   The  deal speaks. Michael, do you have any other questions? I got a I got no quickfire questions when you're when you're out.   Michael: No, I'm all milked out.   Tom: All right. All right. I got these are just a couple of quick questions we're gonna we're gonna end with it's sort of like, it's like, one or the other. It's just quick. You don't need to overthink it. It's just thinking of a successful real estate mind, kind of going through a couple these quick questions. So are you ready for some quickfire questions?   Evan: One of my 2021 year election 2020 New Year's resolutions as well was to not talk so much and listen more. I've failed two years in a row. So I will do my best for the next 10 minutes to be as concise as possible. Yes sir.   Tom: All right, here we go. consolidation or diversification?   Evan: Consolidation we got my head on with this way of approaching both these things consolidation we again coming for someone that used to buy and hold used to flip you stolen money used to do all these things our group didn't go parabola from a growth perspective or my portfolio my balance sheet didn't go public from a growth perspective until we consolidate and got laser focus what we're good at.   Tom: Yep, love it. Hi property taxes or high income taxes?   Evan: I would choose high property taxes doesn't matter what your property taxes are as long as your cash flowing I mean, it doesn't income taxes comes out of your pocket property taxes comes out the tenants pockets. So…   Tom: Like it I rent growth or low vacancy?   Evan: Low vacancy I don't really care about anything so long as it's consistent. present me personally, again, I hope I would challenge that differently. But I'm in Indianapolis man, rent rent stays pretty normal, but my vacancy is between zero and 5%.   Tom: High cash flow or high appreciation?   Evan: I have to go high cash flow. It's consistent same as the previous answer.   Tom: Debt or equity?   Evan: Equity. Is that even a question?     Tom: Just kind of a you know, like a, they call it a Rorschach test. Right? All right, no, no rush test that's like… Evan: I'm a I'm a Dave Ramsey fanatic. Hey, even though the commercial building right now we have no debt at all. And anything that we do, which I know is stupid, but again, I sleep like a rock at night. And I encourage folks to there's a lot of folks that dig deep into the BRRRR side of things, and I gotta borrow this, I can refinance this, whatever. And again, it just goes against my, my understanding of, I got a head around here somewhere. But our slogan here at our group is believe in the basics. It's all about the basics. And if you the second you start go against the basics, where the buy phrase sell for me makes me you know, just gets ultra convoluted really quickly, interest rates and payback periods and pay off notes and those little convoluted things. I'm a finance guy, so wanted to make fun of this but big, big fan of keep it simple, stupid. And if there's something you can't describe on a napkin in real estate you shouldn't be doing.   Tom: Alright, last couple of questions we got here, single family or multifamily.   Evan: I like single family different exit opportunities. Every person that buys multifamily is going to be more sophisticated and someone wants to buy three one and Lawrence.   Tom: Local or remote investing?   Evan: Local if you had the chance, but obviously, you know, for wholesalers, especially folks that are in cash flow markets like my own, you'd be surprised what out of state folks will buy for properties. So if you're wholesaling it's nice to find someone who's a legitimate out of state investor but if you had the opportunity everyone would like to live next to their properties obviously.   Tom: Pragmatic answer I like it. turnkey are turnkey or massive project?   Evan: Whatever the other thing is not turnkey. turnkey is worst thing in the world. I believe in. Just I like baking a value on my own again, there's nothing wrong with it. I bought some myself I've sold some myself. It's just it's it's tremendous to get into the the the to get in the door with but to do it long term and senseless when you can find other ways to build value.   Tom: All right, final final few Midnight Oil or early bird worm.   Evan: I'm 30 without a kid so I'll say both. Late night I suppose I'm a bourbon guy. So waking up early isn’t fun.   Tom: Yeah. text message or email?   Evan: Text message. I'm a millennial.   Tom: All right, final question. Olive oil or butter?   Evan: Look at my gut man. I'm a milkman. I’d be ashamed if I didn't say butter.   Tom: That's right. That's good.      Michael: It was a test   Tom: Awesome,   Evan: You spoon fed me that one.   Michael: You passed!   Tom: Thank you so much for jumping on. And this was a, this was an awesome, awesome interview. And I mean, just to kind of my favorite part. And I love that resume aspect of providing to your buyers, and probably even the lenders to like everybody you work with, like having this sort of resume of you as an investor cash. I love that as a takeaway.   Evan: Man, I appreciate it. Thank you. And I can't I can't take credit for this. This came from when I was 20. I I'll be 31 in July. So I haven't been doing this a long time. And frankly, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I've walked into one of the best seller markets in the world some I'm just a guy.   But when I was first getting started, I bumped into a guy who was the president of the Metropolitan Indianapolis Board of realtors my bore for a long long time doing my nine to five job and he told me Evan You know, this old man touched on a rock and roll back and forth on his chair, whatever, Evan their three T's every real estate, transaction time, Treasury and talent. And the biggest piece of this whole thing is is understanding you know, and conveying to someone that you have talent you're trustworthy to, you know, someone can lend you money, right? Because you don't have the Treasury right and oftentimes you don't have the time you're working a nine to five job so if you can convince someone you've got the talent you know, that's, that's 95% of the battle.   So I encourage anyone everyone who's down to read this book or been at this event been to this mastermind, whatever, put it on a resume, the sooner you can convey that you are someone of talent, it goes a long, long way for rebuilding remarkable, the real estate industry.   Michael: That's great. That's great. Evan, what's the best way for folks to reach out to you and get in touch if they have additional question about wholesaling or want to take you up on your services?   Evan: Guys. Thanks for asking the question. We are wildly available on YouTube. We have a whole media studio downstairs and all we do all day long. Just put out educational content on property taxes, income taxes. I'm not an attorney, consult your professionals buying real estate underwriting deals, you name it. So YouTube's a great way to get a hold of me but me personally, my email to 10 days is [email protected].   Tom: Awesome. All right, Evan, thank you so much for joining us.   Michael: Thanks so much.   Evan: Sounds good.   Tom: Thanks again to Evan for jumping on with us and teaching us about the wholesaling program, their company how to be a better buyer with wholesalers and get yourself to stand out. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, please rate us please subscribe. Tell your friends about us. We appreciate that greatly. And as always, happy investing.