How to achieve financial independence by house hacking w/Craig Curelop

Craig Curelop is an author and the co-founder of The FI Team, a group that focuses on helping people attain financial independence through real estate investing. In 2017, Craig took a 50% pay cut to move to Denver to work with bigger Pockets and begin his house-hacking journey. Craig achieved financial independence in about 2 years, climbing over a mountain of student debt on the way. When it comes to house hacking Craig is the guy you want to learn from.  In this episode, we cover what house hacking is, how to do it, and what it takes -- Just enough to inspire to jump into this powerful investment strategy.    Check out Craig's book here: https://store.biggerpockets.com/products/the-house-hacking-strategy Craig is @thefiguy on Instagram and Tic-Tok --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: What's up everyone? Welcome to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum. And today with us I have with me Craig Curelop who is an author, real estate investor, former BiggerPockets employee, and Craig's gonna be talking to us today about House hacking, how he did it, how you can do it too. And all the benefits it's afforded him over time. So let's get into it.   Craig Curelop, thanks so much for taking the time and joining me today. Man, I really appreciate you hanging out.   Craig: Yeah. Thanks, Michael, so much for having me on. It's a pleasure to be here.   Michael: Awesome. So today, I want to talk to you about House hacking. And I think you are one of the best versed people in the subject. And so for anyone who doesn't know you your story, can you give us a little bit of background on who you are? And kind of what you've done with your house hacks?   Craig: Yeah, for sure. So let's see, we can go back to I guess, 2016 When I absolutely hated my job, right? So.   Michael: Like so many   Craig: Like, Yeah, I think if you're listening to this podcast, you probably hated your job. At some point. If you're on the track toward financial independence, you felt some sort of pain from your job, right? Well, I felt a ton of pain. And I was like, Okay, how the heck do I get out of this? And I kind of fell into the financial independence community. But really, I found real estate investing first. I found it through. I found the idea of passive income through Tim Ferriss book. And then I found the idea of real estate investing through a friend who then introduced me to bigger pockets. And then I went down the rabbit hole of bigger pockets.   Michael: It's such a deep rabbit hole,   Craig: Oh its…  and you can't climb back out of it. Right. Yeah. And so you know, for months and months, I would be like listening to webinars, watching the podcasts and reading the books and all that stuff, just educated myself. And then in 2017, is when I actually moved from Silicon Valley to Denver to work at bigger pockets, which was like a dream come true. But then also start my real estate investing career.   Michael: Okay, that's awesome. So you moved. Were you? Did you give up a California Silicon Valley salary to take a pay cut to move to Denver?   Craig: Yeah. So all in, you know, if you include like the 401k match and all that stuff, I was making about 115-$120,000 a year in Silicon Valley. I accepted a job at bigger pockets for $65,000 a year.   Michael: Wow.   Craig: Almost a half a pay cut.   Michael: Okay. And then so then bring us up to speed. So you're working at bigger pockets, you got introduced to real estate investing. What next?   Craig: Yeah, so 2017. You know, it took me two months, working on bigger pockets to then buy a property in Denver. The property I purchased was just a mile and a half from the office. So like and walkable. It was a duplex that was totally finished. Right. You hear a lot of people in real estate podcasts be like, Oh, you got to like find the sweat equity and find the thing that needs work. Buy rehab, no, like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, no in a house hack. That is not what you want to do. You want to buy something that's turnkey, so you can move in and get it rented, ASAP. Because otherwise you're going to be paying for rehab. You're not going to get tenants. And the whole name of the game of house hacking is exactly one year later. You want to take what you saved and buy your next house hack, right. And so if you're doing a rehab and not collecting rent, you're taking away from the next next down payment.   Michael: Okay,   Craig: So that was my strategy for kind of getting some of this relatively turnkey now. So it was a duplex top bottom, one bed, one bath each unit, I was determined to make this thing cashflow, and live for free. So I purchased it for 385,000 I lived in the bottom rented out the top my mortgage payment was $2,000 a month. I was getting 1750 For the top so I wasn't quite getting it.   Michael: Start digging in couch cushions.   Craig: Yeah, that's right i mean living in this is maybe some you know, tapped into some of the my experience in Silicon Valley. I put up a futon in the living room and slept behind this curtain in room divider like cardboard box room divider thing. Slept behind that for a year while Airbnbing out my bedroom. So now that property was making me I was making $1,100 a month from the Airbnb on average. So 2850 in total rent a month $2,000 mortgage so I was making like 850 over the mortgage after reserves maybe like 600 or so. And I was living for free. Right and so   Michael: Amazing.   Craig: Yeah, that was my you know, my first story and I wanted out I want to be financially dependent, so bad that I really would do anything for it. And as at the time I was a 24 year old single guy All day, like take advantage of your situations, right?   Michael: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, looking in hindsight in the rearview mirror, I mean, is there anything you would have done differently on that first one are you like now I pretty much nailed it. Because it sounds like a home run.   Craig: Yeah. So I bought I got lucky, right? I bought in a really good area that I didn't know was that good. And you know, that $385,000 property is probably worth close to 600,000. Now, it's not over that. So and that misses, you know, we're talking four years later, four and a half years later. So like massive increase, right. But I got lucky there. And so had I know, I know now, I probably would have done a rent by the room situation, which is kind of what I did going forward after that. So I would buy a house in the suburbs, right a five bed two bath a five bed three bath live in one bedroom actually have my own private space with like a bed and a window and a closet and   Michael: Not just a curtain and a futon?   Craig: Not just a curtain, a futon, yeah. Right. And then I rent out the other rooms, they actually cashflow better, then, than the duplex did. I slept in a better place. The only downside about these suburban places is you don't get the same appreciation. So in a way, I'm happy because I got really good appreciation on this place. But, you know, at that time, I was like, Oh, you don't bank on appreciation.   Michael: So right, right. Okay, so in the rent by the room? Are you doing short term or long term rentals by the room or both? Craig: So we do long term rentals, six to 12 month leases, typically. But you can take it on a case by case basis. And just because I do a super 12 month lease doesn't mean you have to. I know plenty of people that do months a month, some people do it furnished, kind of like you know, three to six month lease on furnish finder. There's a million ways to do it. So there's not one right way. But I just liked the idea of get somebody in don't worry about it for another year.   Michael: Yeah, totally. And are you managing all the leases and the tenants and the relationships and all that sort of thing? Or do you have a property manager handle it for you?   Craig: At the time that I purchased that property? You know, this is 2018 I purchased my first rent by the room, I did do it myself, but I have since moved to property management and I no longer do it.   Michael: Okay, even when you're living in those properties, use a property manager or is this now once you move out, now you outsource the property management.   Craig: No even when I live in there, now I do the property management, right. So that's the luxury of having more real estate and getting more passive income. Right. It's that toasts things you don't like to do you just outsource because they can do better than you and you won't be doing it. So   Michael: Yeah. Have you ever seen that show Silicon Valley speaking?   Craig: I have seen that show. Yeah, not the whole thing. But I've seen probably two or three seasons.   Michael: That's what I picture you like you're like the Erlik Bachman character having all these other roommates.   Craig: Take like 20% equity of the company.   Michael: Startup incubator.   Craig: Yeah not a bad idea.   Michael: Yeah. So good. So So getting back to that first one, did you buy it very traditionally with 20%? Down? Are you were using like an FHA loan? How did you get into it? Cuz I think that's the biggest hurdle for so many new investors is this downpayment piece.   Craig: Yeah. So when I was back in 2017, when I bought my first one, the only way to do it with an FHA loan, right, like, and that's not really true. It's just the only way that I knew how to do it. And the only way that was kind of popularized. Okay, so the only way to house hack that I knew of was you buy a duplex, triplex or quad, live in one unit rent out the others. That's why the single family wasn't really on my radar. So because of that, I had to do a 3.5% down FHA loan on that first one.   Michael: Okay. Awesome. And now, knowing what you know, now, I mean, what tools you find at your disposal and your tool belt to, to get into properties?   Craig: Yeah, so I recommend if you're going to do you know, depends on your market and whatnot, but in Denver, duplexes, and triplexes. And quads are really hard to cash flow. So I really like doing the single family homes on single family homes, you can do 5%, down conventional, and what the great thing about that is, is you can have pretty much as many conventional loans as you want. And the limit is like 10, but you know, it's not one with FHA loan is just one, right. So in order to get that FHA loan back, you'd have to refinance. And it's sometimes it's hard to refinance. Because if you put in 3.5%, down, you have to refinance, such that you can pull 25% out, loan to value have to be 75%. And so I was fortunate in that property and appreciate it like crazy. I have refinanced that one, I do have my FHA loan back in my pocket now, but again, right, like in 2017, I didn't know where we'd be in 2021.   Michael: Right, right. Okay. And so just taking a total step back, I'm realizing that many people might not even know what a house hack is, give us your definition of what a house hack is.   Craig: Yeah, so the house hack house hack is the idea that you purchase a one to four unit property with a low percent down, typically 0% to 5% down, you those if you have a zero to 5% down, you're required to live there for one year. So you move in you live there for one year, and while you're living there, you're renting out the other rooms or the other units, and that rent is covering your mortgage and you're either living for free or drastically reducing your living expense, while purchasing and owning property. And you can do this every single year systematically. So you build up a decent portfolio for yourself.   Michael: That's awesome. So Craig, do you think it's the best place to start? Or could you house hack even after you have a pretty sizable portfolio?   Craig: I mean, you can have a sec anytime, right? I think it is absolutely the best place to start. Because in frankly, it's really good. Because you really can't have a better return on your 20 or $30,000. Right? Because you're you're you're purchasing, I can purchase a $500,000 property for 30. Grand, right? Between if that appreciates just 10% $50,000. Right, that's 100% return right there, that doesn't include the cash flow, the loan pay down and all the tax benefits that you get so.   So we're seeing like, we help a lot of people get into housefax. And I've done quite a few myself, and every single one has 100% or more total return on investment.   Michael: That’s so good.   Craig: If you've got right, like, it's not it, I think it can be for everybody. But like, if you're Elon Musk, or Bill Gates, like, do you think they care about putting $20,000 down? Right, like they can't be bothered, right? So there are people that you know, if your net worth is in, you know, 10s of millions of dollars, then like, you know, you probably don't care, and you're probably well off enough where you don't need to buy either $20,000 or $30,000, you'd probably rather, you know, spend 300,000 or $500,000 to put your money somewhere a little bit more efficiently.   Michael: Okay. Love it. Love it. So Craig, have you now purchased traditional rentals in the traditional sense, like just pure rentals without having ever lived there?   Craig: Yeah, yep. So I have six traditional rentals in North Carolina, and I've got one here in Denver, and then two plots of land, which we're building on one of them in Florida.   Michael: Oh, man, that's frickin exciting. And you became financially independent over the last couple years, right?   Craig: That's right. Yeah. 2019 is when I officially hit the financial independence mark, and I went from a negative net worth of $30,000. But when I bought my first property to financially free and like a little over two years,   Michael: That's incredible. And so house hacking, was that the main vehicle that you were using, or did you do something else to juice it?   Craig: Oh, there was a lot of house hacking was by far the biggest thing. Probably 70% of that was because of house hacking. But I had a big student loan obligation, I had a $90,000 student loan, student loans. I think the payment was 800 bucks or something like that.   Michael: Okay,   Craig: So I had to wipe that out. And I did that through I rented my car out onto Touro, which was about an extra $700 a month, I did some Airbnb arbitrage where I rented a place for my buddy, pay him month rent each month, put it on Airbnb, and I kept the difference.   Michael: So good.   Craig: Yeah, that was probably like, maybe 10 or $15,000. Over the course of a year, we ended up getting shut down because the condo didn't allow Airbnbs. But it was good while it lastes. And then also, I got I asked my job, this is probably the biggest kind of lump sum things that I got. Is that a bigger pockets? I went and I asked my boss, hey, is there anything that I can do outside of my current scope of work, that would drive revenue and drive the business forward that I could also be paid for? Right? So basically asking for a bonus, but not just asking for it? Because I deserve it, but actually earning? Right? Like, how can I provide value to the company and then the company can be they give me a fraction of the value that I provided back? So it's a win win? And so that was another thing that I did. And I think I did that twice? For a total of, like, $45,000.   Michael: Nice. And just out of curiosity, I do. What did they say? Were they like, why would you ask that? I mean, How was that received? Because that's not a question that I hear people going and asking their bosses on any kind of regularity.   Craig: Yeah. So you know, we work bigger pockets is a was was a pretty small company at the time. And they were all about the hustle and all that right. And so I just figured, hey, it didn't hurt to ask, right? How do you be creative. And there was this project that was on the back burner for a while, but it kept wanting to get out of it kept wanting to get it out. They kept wanting to get it out. But like no one was the person to do it. And I was just asked, Hey, can I like, Can I do it? And can I get paid for it? And so what we did was the landlord forums. So we've I basically got in contact with a lawyer and every single state asked him to review our landlord forms, put them up on the BiggerPockets site for them to sell or include as part of the pro membership. And so because of because of that, they were like, yeah, we'll pay you $500 per state. So quick math, that's 25 grand. Right? And I'm like, like, Heck yeah, we'll do that.   Michael: That's incredible. So you were just hustling your your butt off for two, two and a half years and investing the whole time.   Craig: Oh, Yeah, I mean, I was saving mostly right, because I was, I was saving just everything I made from my house hacks. Everything I made from my job, I was very, very frugal, even at 40, and then those lump sum kind of bonuses and all that I would use to pay down my student loans. And you could argue that wasn't the most efficient use of my money. But my student loans were actually kind of expensive. They were like, 6%. But again, House hacks, or, you know, they never gotten in my way of house hacking. So as long as they're not in my way of house hacking, they're doing me good. And I just wanted to see that payment get removed, because like, once, once that debt is released, is just, you know, everything takes off.   Michael: You're off to the races. Yeah. So that's such I mean, such a great question. And a question that I get regularly as part of the Tech Academy is like, Hey, I've got these other debts here. And I also want to invest, where do I spend my money? First? What are your thoughts there?   Craig: Yeah, I think I think a house hack is always the number one thing that you should do. Right? And it also depends on the returns that you're expecting. So if you're expecting returns that are like 5-6-7 percent, and your loans are like 5-6-7 percent, you might as well pay off your loans, because you're paying it off with no risk. Whereas your 6% 7% is a risky six to 7%.   So yeah, there's no, there's no right or wrong way. Like I people. People have told me oh, you should have paid like you should pay off your all your debt first, before you start investing? It's like, well, no, because a house hack will make me 100%. And my student loans are at 6%. Right? That's a massive difference. I paid off my student loans in like 15 months, you know, like, I would never have been able to do that. If I was still saving to pay down my student loans. I still am paying them off today. Yeah, right.   Michael: So it's so good. It's so good. I've heard the response, a rebuttal to when suggested house hacking. Oh, but my won't cover my full payment, or I'm still gonna be paying 2500 bucks a month, whatever my mortgage? I mean, what do you say to people that have that response? Like, oh, if I don't live for free, it's it's a loss, or I didn't do it, right.   Craig: You do not need to live for free to have a successful house hack, especially if you're in a more expensive market, it's really hard to make it live to live for free. I know, I know, people that are house hacking in the Bay Area in LA in Chicago, like, more expensive places, for sure. Yeah. And they're not covering their mortgage, but maybe they're paying $1,000 a month to live in a place that would typically cost him two or $3,000 a month. So that's $1,000 in savings right there. And that's massive. So and not to mention that you're still going to get if you're in one of those big cities. You know, those cities tend to appreciate a lot faster than if you're in Podunk. Somewhere. Right. So yeah, I just think that, you know, those, get the getting that appreciation makes you very makes you very rich.   Michael: Yeah, yeah, I know one more. I'm actually about to close on my first Beriah house hack here in a couple weeks.   Craig: There you go.   Michael: Yeah, I'll we'll circle back in a couple of months. And I'll tell you how it's gone. Yeah, please do pretty soon. And so now I'm just curious. We always joke on these podcasts. They can be so self serving in going the short term rental route for the because basically it's a it's a full three two with an upstairs unit with a full adu short term rental, mid term rental or long term rental. What are your thoughts there for the house act?   Craig: Obviously depends on like where you are stuff. You're buying your place in San Francisco.   Michael: In Petaluma, so the North Bay,   Craig: Okay, okay. Yeah, I mean, if there's a good Airbnb market, and there's not rules and regulations, I would say, Airbnb will probably make you the most money. However, you know, you have a little bit more volatility, right, with summers are probably really good winters, maybe stink. You know, if there's a pandemic that hits then you're kind of screwed, right. Like, there's more, there's more risks with short term, medium term. Usually, it's like traveling nurses, they're always going to be Yeah, furnish finder. So those are good usually can charge a little bit more than on a long term. And then on a long term, obviously, everyone knows what that is so. I would say like, you should have plan A, plan B, plan C, right? So if you're gonna maybe your Airbnb in it for a couple years, while your nest egg is small to get a larger return on your investment, but then you maybe decide that you don't want to live and die by Airbnb reviews, you don't want to manage it, or you don't even want to manage a manager that's managing it. And then you're so you decide, you know, I'm going to switch it to a long term rental, and make it easy and a little bit more passive.   So yeah, whatever floats your boat. Because,   Michael: Yeah, that makes total sense. Cool, man. So now, it's so fun. We're jumping all over the place. But this is great. So turn the clock to yours, you become financially independent. I mean, you've reached the pinnacle of what so many of our listeners are trying to achieve. So what did you do? I mean, I don't see you on a beach with a Muy Thai in your hand right now. So what have you been spending your time doing over the last couple of years?   Craig: You know, I actually once I became financially independent, is when I quit my job, right? Because now I've got that buffer. a safety net. And I went in and basically started helping other people achieve financial independence through real estate investing through being a real estate agent. And so for the first year, right in 2020, I was basically just doing it all myself, I think I did, I did almost 100 deals myself that year. And I was running around like a chicken with my head cut off   Michael: That’s like one every three days.   Craig: Yeah, it was nuts. It was nuts, for sure. And I was like, Okay, I'm either going to quit this, or build a team. And so we decided to build a team of investor friendly realtors in so that are all house hackers that are all investors. So we can talk topic and walk the walk, we got the vendors, we got the contractors, we're literally like a turnkey agent service, where wherever you need we guy. And we have, we're also building a really cool community of people here in Denver, of house hackers. So like, can surround like, we can all build each other up. And you know, we can all love each other. And someday, when we're all finally dependent, we can hang out with each other because no one's hanging out with a bunch of old people when you're in your 30s. Right.   Michael: I think that's the biggest problem. becoming financially independent young is like none of your friends, you don't have any homies to go play with.   Craig: you'll make friends that are financially independent, if you're in the community, if you're, if you're like achieving this financial independence, and you don't have a friend group that's doing it, then you got to find that friend group in your city, because I guarantee you it's in every city, you just got to find the people that are doing it. And then you'll find that you kind of transition away from your friends not pursuing it and hang out a little bit more with your friends that are.   Michael: That makes total sense. So now that you're an agent, I mean, how should people approach finding a house hacking friendly agent, if they're interested in doing this for themselves? Because not every real estate agent, as you know, are created equal?   Craig: Oh, for sure. They're hard. They're hard to find, right? Like you can reach out to me, honestly, we have a massive network of real estate agents all around the country that are investor friendly. So @thefiguy, you can just shoot me a message and we'll coordinate.   Michael: Awesome.   Craig: Or, you know, I think if you go on to bigger pockets and shoot out a message in the forums, that's a good place. BiggerPockets has an agent, kind of finder as well, it's pretty good. But those guys, the only my only shtick with that is you just got to make sure you've got them, right, because I'm not sure that I think BiggerPockets is vetting them, but we don't know how well they're vetting them. And so it's always so don't blame BiggerPockets if you find an agent through their site, and they suck, right, like it's still on you to vet them. And there's a handful of questions that can be asked and all that kind of stuff.   Michael: Awesome. Awesome. And I love it. I love it. So you're working as an agent, you got a full team, what's next for you?   Craig: Yeah, so we're continuing to grow the team. So we just expanded into Colorado Springs. So now we're kind of covering all the Front Range in Colorado, and we're looking to kind of just keep expanding kind of throughout the country. So, you know, we don't know where we're going next. But we're planning to, you know, hopefully hit all 50 states, and just help. You know, our whole goal is help people achieve financial independence through real estate investing. Our big hairy audacious goal is to reduce the US retirement age to 55.   Michael: So Killer.   Craig: Yeah, so if we can get enough people to start house hacking, or even just start seeking financial independence, even if it's not the real estate, you know, I think that number could easily be put downward cuz I think it's going up now. I think it's like, 67. I heard it's like, they're pushing it up. So   Michael: Yeah, I think the age that you can collect social security keeps getting pushed up. That's crazy.   Craig: Yeah, let's let's have a bunch of young, financially free retired people. So we can actually like love it, do something and change the world with our newfound energy.   Michael: With the with the time and money that we have.   Craig: Yeah, absolutely.   Michael: Yeah. That's so good. Craig, you also wrote a book, which is so humbly not mentioning, what's it called? And what can people expect to find in it if they pick it up?   Craig: Yeah, so the book is called the house hacking strategy. It's published through bigger pockets. And basically it is your how to guide in the house hack. Basically walk you step by step through the entire house hack process, whether it's finding a deal, getting the loan, analyze the deal, getting your tenants you know asking those questions like What questions did you ask your lender? What questions did you ask your realtor? Just you can reiterate your playbook for a house hack so yeah, I think I definitely poured my heart and soul into it. And yeah, it's been it's been doing well   Michael: That's great and that's available on Amazon on bigger pockets where can people find it?   Craig: Yeah, you can find it you can go to bigger pockets calm slash house hack that there you can find the book as well as other bonus material that's only sold on bigger pockets. I think I give you like the house hacking calculator. Some leases like some rent by the room type leases a couple other things and then all your purchase purchases on Amazon. It's cheaper, but you don't get all that all the sweet stuff. So   Michael: Okay. Right on. So yeah, definitely. All you listeners go check that I've read it. It's a great book. I think you really We're going to enjoy it. So Greg, I'm curious, where have you seen people go wrong with House hacking? Because I mean, it sounds great. In theory, it sounds like you can't lose. But like with every investment, there's got to be some risks and downsides. So where have you seen people get tripped up?   Craig: Honestly, like, I've never met a person that's bought a house hack that regrets it. However, I'm totally serious. Like, I, I've literally never seen it, but where I see people potentially tripping up, and they're not that they trip up, it's just that they don't make it as efficient as possible, is the kind of slack I'm trying to get tenants in. Right. And so I decided, like, once you go under, once you get past the appraisal process, like the thing is probably going to close. So get right, get, you know, get your listing up, start creating it, like the minute you close. Start, try and start trying to find tenants. And, you know, post, get your listing posted, and then go into your Facebook groups that reach out to people and ask around, hey, does anybody know anybody looking for a room? And, you know, if you're proactive and get it done, I see people renting out five, six rooms in two or three weeks. So   Michael: Holy crap,   Craig: Yeah if you're proactive on it, right? But if you're not and you think they're just gonna, everyone's gonna come to you in only three or four months. So   Michael: Yeah, yeah. And so aside from Airbnb furnish finder, maybe Facebook, where are you seeing people post their listing that gets a lot of traction? Are those really the main sites?   Craig: Those are those are big ones. Facebook marketplace is really big. You know, if you're going to rent by the room, there's roomies and Roomster, which are really good. If you're gonna do your traditional kind of rental, like if you're doing a duplex, you want to rent out a four unit. You know, Zillow, Trulia, hot pads, all those typical, typical sites. Yeah,   Michael: That's awesome. And in terms of screening tenants, I mean, I've used I live with roommates for forever. And I'm very comfortable having that conversation on how to screen a roommate. But how do you screen a tenant a potential tenant?   Craig: Yeah, so the first thing you want to do is, is basically like, so someone says they're interested, right? You put all your criteria in the listing, right? So if it's, Hey out, you know, you need a 700 credit score, clean background, clean credit, whatever, like, you got to put all your criteria listed in the in the listing, okay, hopefully, that screens people, but some people are stupid, and they just, they just request it anyway. Or they don't read it. Yeah. And so usually, if someone, if I'm getting a lot of feedback, like, hey, I want to come see they want to come see it, I want to come see it. I hold like an open house type thing.   So that way, you know, people stands you up, they're not wasting your time, right? It's like, hey, on Thursday, from five to 7pm, I'm going to be at the house, come by and see, please, and I sit there, and I just like my computer, whatever. And as they come in, I show em the house. And honestly, I've only ever once I feel this a million times, only one time have I ever had two people show up at once. So some sort of serendipity there. I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky. But and even if they do show up to people at once, it's kind of nice, because then it shows like this in competition, like whoever it was quick,   Michael: I got a rush.   Craig: Yeah. And so you know, just by seeing them in person and talking to them and showing them the house in that five or 10 minutes, you get a pretty good idea of whether you want to live with this person or not. So if they seem cool, you say, hey, like, Yeah, I'll send you an application, fill out the application. We'll go from there. And then on that application, you know, they got to do a background check, a credit check, pay stubs, land, land, past landlord, recommend, references, employer reference, all these things. And like, make sure that they meet your criteria. And if they meet your criteria, you let them in, if they don't see ya.   Michael: Love it. Love it. Man, crack. This has been so awesome. Any final tips for folks, as we're getting you out of here?   Craig: he whole point of house hacking is to get started and get started soon. Time is your biggest enemy on House hacking. So don't go and try to look for like the best you with the best value add or whatever it is right? Just like look what's on the market right now. And try to figure out what is the best deal that's on the market right now? And try to go after it. Because again, right? Like, if you wait six months and find a good deal, right? That means you can't buy your second property for a year in six months. So you're losing out on six months of appreciation, six months of cash flow six months of tax benefits, and that that compounds every year, right? So then it's like, Okay, the next one, you can apply to yours in six months. And if you like, you know, I did this analysis one time where it's like, what if someone bought an okay deal every year for 10 years, versus someone bought an amazing deal every 18 months. The person who bought one deal a year for 10 years, ends up being like a million dollars richer than the person who just buys one every 18 months, because they've got 10 properties versus like five or six.   Michael: Yeah, that's so nuts. That's so nuts. Man. Real estate is this insane vehicle when you start really getting into the weeds and running models like that. That's incredible.   Craig: That's true.   Michael: Awesome. Well, Craig, if people want to learn more about you, where can they reach out? Learn about you ask you questions. Have people get in touch?   Craig: Yeah, so we have a podcast it's called investor fi. We have you know, I think a similar audience so definitely feel free to check that out as well as the fire guy on Instagram and tick tock so feel free to hit me up on Instagram Tik Tok   Michael: Right on thanks again Craig for hanging out appreciate you Take care man talk to you soon.   Craig: See you Michael thanks for having me on.   Michael: Alrighty everyone that was our show a big thank you to Craig for coming on and hanging out with me. I had a lot of fun. I always joke I get to selfishly ask all these professionals and experts questions that I've had on my mind. Hopefully you got a lot out of it and are thinking about now house hacking because I think it's a pretty kick butt way to get started or to help boost your real estate investing career. As always check us out wherever you listen to your podcast, give us a rating or review. We look forward to seeing the next one and Happy investing