What is happing in the fix & flip space in today’s market? Kendall Bazan

Kendall Bazan is a data-driven marketing professional with 10+ years’ experience, with a focus on fintech and investment management software. She previously worked for a large, multinational enterprise software company and came to Fund That Flip when there were fewer than 20 people on board. She has helped grow the company from originating $50million to over $500million in the past three years, doubling the customer base each year with exponential revenue growth. She is also a new real estate investor herself, after she and her husband both bought their first rental properties in Columbus, OH in early 2020! In this episode, Kendall shares what people should be thinking about if they want to take on a fix and flip project in today’s market.   Episode Links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kendallkrawchuk/ https://learn.fundthatflip.com/real-estate-investing-blog/author/kendall-bazan --- Transcript   Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: What's going on everyone? Welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today I'm joined by Kendall Bazan, the CMO of Fund That Flip, and she's gonna be talking to us today about all of the things flippers, whether you're new or seasoned, should be aware of both in getting their business started, and keeping it rolling. So let's get into it.   Kendall Bazan, welcome to the Remote Real Estate Investor. Thanks for taking the time to hang out with me today, I really appreciate you coming on.   Kendall: For sure, Michael, I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.   Michael: Oh, my pleasure. So you are the chief marketing officer for Fund That Flip, right?   Kendall: That's right.   Michael: Awesome. Well, I know a little bit about your background, we were chatting just before we hit the record button. But I would love if you could share with our listeners, who you are, where you're coming from and what it is that you're doing in real estate.   Kendall: Absolutely, that sounds great. So a little bit about my background, I come from kind of an unorthodox background, both as a marketer and as a person in real estate, which I think is probably true of most people in real estate. So in a previous life, I was actually pursuing my PhD of all things, took the academic route decided and discovered that it wasn't really for me. So had, everything that goes along with that. So an identity crisis and all of that and really decided, okay, I've got to build myself back up from the ground up. So tried my hand at doing a little bit email marketing, part time for a technology company and got addicted to it. Fast forward a couple…   Michael: Really?   Kendall: So yeah, in my mid kind of mid to late 20s, as well. So like working alongside 18 year old’s and feeling like, okay, where am I really going in my life right now I'm late 20s. I don't know what I'm doing. Everything that goes along with that. But at things, you know, progressed, and I got some really good experience working for a software company that actually did enterprise software for commercial real estate. So got introduced to the industry and started to learn the language, which I really think if you know you're coming into real estate and don't have a background in it, it's a new language to learn, so… So on the commercial side, you know, started learning about investment management, software, etc. And really had a serendipitous opportunity when the founder of fun that flip reached out on Angel List and said, hey, I am looking for my first marketing person. We're a small startup, you know, we've got 15 people opening an office in Cleveland, you know, would you be interested in checking it out? And had that first conversation with our founder, our CEO, Matt, and haven't looked back since. So it's been four years of building up a team and, you know, when I came in to fund that flip, we were just originating, I think 8 million in loans a month and being really excited about it and, you know, today, I think we're doing 100 million a month, so 10-12x, and kind of what we were doing four years ago when I started so it's been a wild ride.   Michael: Holy smokes. I mean, it seems like a pretty logical progression going from PhD total marketer, I could see how someone can make this transition... Oh, my God, that's wild. All right and so for people that maybe don't know if on that flip is can you speak to us a little bit about what they are kind of in what they do as a company?   Kendall: We are, we're a real estate focused FinTech platform, founded by real estate entrepreneurs, for real estate entrepreneurs. What does that actually mean? So we're a two sided marketplace, we have services for all real estate investors. On the one side, active investors, people that are flippers developers, rental portfolio owners, that are actively sourcing investment projects and need financing and other services for them. We provide that to them and then on the other side of the marketplace, we also provide investment opportunities for passive investors. So folks that don't want to pick up a hammer folks that don't want to be on the negotiating table but still want to be investing in real estate. We allow them to buy fractional shares and invest in fractional shares of those loans and also pooled fund opportunities as well. So really a two sided marketplace that is everything investing in residential real estate.   Michael: Okay, we definitely need to have a follow up conversation after we get done recording hear about that side of things, but that is super, super interesting. So, Kendall talk to us a little bit about because you are a marketer, prior academic turned marketer. Talk to us about how people should be thinking about flipping in today's market, it's heated, it's red hot, no one can get a deal. What are what I mean, how are people still flipping and how are you funding $100 million in loans a month, if the market is just too hot?   Kendall: Yeah, it's a really exciting time and it's a crazy time to be in real estate. I think as everybody can relate, I think, you know, where we have seen our customers having the most success, is, it's pretty simple. It's staying laser focused on the markets that they know, and the ones that they're ingrained in, because they know the best they know the neighborhoods, they know, the comps they know, you know, the people that are going to be the end buyers or the tenants. So where we have really doubled down and where we have seen success with our customers is those local entrepreneurs that are in, you know, the Philly, in the Charlotte, in Rock Hill, South Carolina, that really have spent the time kind of boots on the ground knocking on doors and understanding the neighborhoods, those are the people that we're finding are having the most success right now. Now, that being said to, you know, we were, we work with a lot of national investors who take a look at the entire scope of the country and our and our, you know, using their connections in those local markets so that they can, you know, get properties in those localized kind of communities.   Michael: Yep. Yeah, that makes sense, I'm glad you followed up with that second point, being on the remote real estate investor anyhow, it's important to think about those remote folks too.   Kendall: And, you know, Michael, what I would say to that is that there's so many resources out there that, you know, we as a, as a lender, and as a, as a financing partner, that, that, that we have kind of at our fingertips to help our national investors. So, you know, forums where people are discussing kind of the local market, you know, to national resources, like, you know, like this podcast and, and other types of publications where people can understand that localized flavor, while still maintaining kind of that 30,000 foot view of what's going on nationally. So I think it really ties back into I, you know, a really core marketing concept that we have at fun that flip and that I really try to impart at every single stage of, you know, every single part of the the two sided marketplace that we have. So it's all really about knowing who is that core target customer that you're going after. So for a lot of our flippers, it's who is going to be that end buyer, or who is going to be, you know, the eventual homeowner of this wonderful home that they have renovated, and that they're presenting to somebody to be able to live in as, as their, you know, place where they're going to have a family. For people that own rental portfolios, it's thinking about, you know, who is your end tenant in those and how do they look different from one state to another or one neighborhood to another because tenants have different needs, and they have different challenges and different wants from one state and even one neighborhood to the next? So what I would say is that, you know, and this is something that we talked about it found that flip a lot it's, you know, who is who is that end customer that we're servicing, and how can we be laser focused on understanding what their needs are, what their wants are and how do we tailor our messaging to kind of what exactly they want to be hearing?   Michael: Yes, yes, yes. Everything you said yes, I couldn't agree with more and we I talked about that all the time in the Roofstock academy, understanding who your tenants are. Because if you go into a neighborhood, that's blue collar working folks, and you put bronze, gold plated marble, everything, it might not be a great fit and so understanding who your who your customer is, right, like in any business, who is your customer, who's your end user, it's so hypercritical.   Kendall: Yeah, I was just gonna add to that, too, Michael, I think that like it's whatever stage of the business or whatever stage, you know, your portfolio and your investments are at, it's great to have that mindset, because that's how you get to scale, even if you only have you know, not only but if you have one to two properties, and I say only because I'm I have a rental portfolio of two properties. If you're at that stage, and you want to get to the five units or the 10 units or you know, 100 or, you know, plus, having that mindset of being laser focused on who your core segment and your core audience is, is what gets you to the next level. It doesn't just happen at that next level of scaling up having it at you know, when you're just starting out is what gets you in the mindset to get you to the next level.   Michael: So what you're saying Kendall is the shotgun approach, spray and pray might not be a great way to go?   Kendall: From personal experience. I can say yes, that doesn't always work the best.   Michael: Okay, good to know. So for people who are just getting started, who are maybe interested in flipping, I mean, what have you seen as a good way from the marketing side of things for people to kind of get their foot in the door to start getting some deals under their belt.   Kendall: So for those that are just getting started, I would say, and I think you'd probably agree with me is Michael, arm yourself with knowledge. It's listened to podcasts, it's you know, find the forums where people are talking about the neighborhoods, the markets that you're interested in investing in, you know, absorb as much as you possibly can listen to podcasts, when you're driving, when you're doing, you know, when you're doing the dishes, it's something that I do when I'm, you know, working out, as you're absorbing that knowledge and building up that knowledge base, then you can start to make, you know, better educated decisions about like, when you're when a deal actually comes across your desk, or when you find one, you're going to be better equipped to actually, you know, make a well informed decision. So, knowledge and foundation, there is key and I would say also, secondly, this is a weird way to put it, but don't necessarily have FOMO for you know, just getting started, I think Fear Of Missing Out is a really good motivator in in business and, and to get people to move to action. But I would say that, if you don't have or if you're, if you're acting on Fear Of Missing Out, without the foundation of knowledge and a strategy behind it, I think it can lead you to sometimes, you know, not the most advantageous outcome. That being said, I would also recommend that, you know, as you're starting to, you know, source deals and looking at off market properties, potentially look at some creative opportunities for how you might actually even start to think about financing. So, you know, lending is not is a potential option for financing your first deal. But also talking to private lenders, and you know, even using your own cash are all great ways to get started and it doesn't mean that that's the kind of financing or the way that you're gonna be financing. The first deal is how you're going to be doing that going forward. So getting creative on where you're looking and finding sources and thinking about how you're going to finance them for that first, first deal, first five deals is paramount.   Michael: So many good points, Kendall and I know that this isn't a marketing question, but keeping in the theme with knowledge and building on the fundamentals. How does fun that flip underwrite deals? Do you know or could you give us any insight into like, okay, if I'm a new investor, I want to get started, I want to start looking at all these opportunities, how do I even know if I'm looking at a good deal or not?   Kendall: Yeah, I think that's such a, that's such a good question, Michael and I will even preface and say that we typically will finance people that are, let's say, you know, two to three properties under the belt. So we don't always work with newbies, but we always like to see, you know, what the property is that they have that that's come across their desk, we will work with them to understand, you know, how, how the numbers shake out if it's profitable, if it's not, because we think that getting people armed with that knowledge is actually super crucial. So even if we know that ultimately, we're not going to finance a deal, we want to work with people that are that are, you know, analyzing these deals to understand if it's profitable or not. So, with that being said, you know, a couple of things that we do look at when we are financing is okay, do we have like kind experience? Can we look at, you know, some previous deals that look quite similar to, you know, the this current flip or, you know, similar types of investment projects? You know, I think, in general lenders will also take, take a look at credit score, it's usually a soft poll. So, you know, in in, you know, looking at that in the range of, you know, whatever, whatever makes sense for that lender, that's something that that's typically considered and then really, it comes down to the mechanics of, hey, is this a profitable deal for both us and for the borrower, themselves, you know, our philosophy, and it's one of the reasons that we've had a really high performing book in as much as we don't have a lot that goes into default and if more loans tend to be non performing, we work really closely with the borrowers to understand what that strategy is and how to get it actually executed. Our philosophy has always been right, good deals, right, good loans, because that is what gets people to come back and to actually scale their business, which is ultimately what everybody wants and that relationship. So we don't do bad deals and if we think that it's, it's going to be profitable for us, but not for the borrower. It's not a deal that we do and I would say, you know, any good financing partner should tell you exactly the same thing.   Michael: Yes, yeah, I totally agree as opposed to letting you go give yourself enough rope to get yourself into some trouble kind of point you in the right direction.   Kendall: 100% yeah.   Michael: I love it. So what can people do to be best prepared to utilize fun that flip or any other lending partner if they are gonna be doing a flip? What should they come prepared with? To say, hey, you know, give me money, please what do they need to provide to you?   Kendall: Yeah, I think it's, it's coming with the story of, you know, not only like, what, what is going to happen with this project with this investment? But you know, What's your ultimate goal as a real estate investor?   Michael: Hmm…   Kendall: Is this simply a fix in flip that's kind of come into your orbit, and you just want to do a one and done, that's great, let's understand that story and see how it fits into your larger investing strategy. So, you know, if you're somebody that is just getting into real estate investing, but you've been involved with, you know, let's say contracting, you've been a GC or you're a real estate agent, and you have that industry adjacent experience, it's understanding that background and understanding, you know, hey, this is how much I've been involved in, and why I'm a real estate professional. So even though this might be my first fix in flip, here's all my background experience, and why I'm qualified to actually execute on this deal. And here's how it fits into my larger investing strategy.   So, you know, that's something that we talk about internally a lot. It's not just looking at the logistics and the details of the deal. But what's the larger story behind the borrower or, you know, the, the, the real estate investor themselves. I would say I, you know, from a, from a tactical level, I would I would also recommend, you know, if you've got that rental portfolio, come with the documentation there, and, you know, proof of liquidity, if that's a requirement, and you know, kind of that light kind experience, again, have those documents in order and, and get the story established. I think that's what best position, excuse me, I think that's what best positions people, when they're looking at different types of financing, particularly with lenders, that's going to position you and make you hugely differentiated, when you have that documentation in order and that backstory of what the strategy is.   Michael: Yeah, I think that makes a ton of sense and me just speaking, anecdotally, to that point, oftentimes, if I'm looking to go get financing for from someone, or some lender, they'll send me hey, this is my needs list, I can reply to them within 35 seconds with all those documents, because I have a folder titled mortgage, it just like has all of those things, because 95%, lenders are going to ask for the same 510 15 documents, so just have them ready and make it easier for everybody.   Kendall: Exactly, exactly and it does, you know, it's a great point, Michael, like, it does take a little bit of legwork to get that all organized, and you know, documented in the first place. But ultimately, it's going to save you that time, once you're starting to pick up velocity, and you've got more deal flow coming in and you're working with multiple different lenders and multiple different investors and spending your time you know, executing or working with your property manager or, you know, working with your GC to get things executed. Having that all organized and built up front is going to save you so much time in the long run again from personal experience, I can say that.   Michael: Yes, I do. Yeah, same here, same here. Okay, so we're recording this end of March 2022. I'm curious if you can speak at all to where you're seeing rates, both on the borrowing side, but also on the lending side of the platform.   Kendall: Over the last six months, there has been a large compression of rates, both for our borrowers downward, and for our cost of capital. So when I say our cost of capital, it's the institutions and the passive investors that that are investing in the loans. Right now, we anticipate that there will probably be some volatility, you know, at this point, and we're starting to see rates creep up again. But we think it'll happen for both sides of our business. So, you know, unfortunately, out there for some, you know, real estate investors, they may start to see rates across the board, climb, but we also anticipate that the passive investing side, so finding opportunities to passively invest, that will yield higher returns as well. What's really interesting is that for us, our business has been designed to really be rate agnostic, I would say. So we're well positioned, you know, if rates are going down, like they had been the last six months, and we were kind of seeing a race to the bottom across a lot of lenders, there's some there's a there were some interesting rates being quoted from competitors. You know, we were well positioned to be offering right at the same level because we've got this really unique diverse capital stack behind us that we also saw kind of that drive downward of rates. So as the market, you know, changes and as we see some choppiness and probably anticipate rising rates, we also anticipate that for both sides, you know, will, will, will be well positioned to have a lot of opportunity also. So, you know, what we have found is that some of our competitors have been tapped out, you know, and we've had a lot of our customers coming back to us and saying, hey, you know, I was working and getting financing with this partner, and, you know, they're really tapped out right now. So can we have that conversation again? So for our purposes, we think there'll be a lot of opportunity to continue to develop long term relationships with people that need stable financing that gets them velocity that gets them to scale.   Michael: Totally, totally and are we talking like double digit numbers? Are we talking high single digits, and any, can you give our listeners an idea of kind of where the rates are falling?   Kendall: We had seen single digits, for sure, kind of across the board for both sides. So for borrowers, it was definitely subtends, you know, nines and eights, that's, again, that's on the fix and flip side rental are gonna be long term rental are gonna be a lot lower than that, you know, so five, let's call it five and four and then likewise, on the passive investor side, so we had seen our cost of capital and institutions and passive investors in the seven and eight range and we're starting to see those creep back up and what's really interesting, Michael, is that when I started, we were our investors, were actually making 12 14% returns on the passive investments, and borrowers were at the, you know, the 12% range. So we've seen that compression over the last four years really driving rates down. We don't think it you know, we don't think rates for borrowers will go, well, we're not sure. But you know, we don't think there will be that much of an upswing back. But if there is, I think that's really interesting, because passive opportunities, then, you know, we'll start to see higher potential yield as well.4   Michael: Totally, totally. You can't really… I want to come back to you also offer financing for traditional buy and hold properties, or are you that kind of the, the, the fixed financing that that people go into after getting their fix and flip loan?   Kendall: So yeah, we are, we're in the process of rolling out our long term rental product, so more to come there. But it's really interesting, because our name, you know, it's something we talk about on the marketing team a lot, we've actually outgrown our name, you know, we say, funds that flip, and yet we do more than funding, and we do more than flips at this point. So fix and flip is our bread and butter. It's, it's a, it's, you know, it's not going away, we'll continue to do fix and flip because we love it, we know it, we know it really well. New construction is huge and we will continue to do new construction as well. And that's something that our customers have been really, really ramping up in terms of what we've been providing for them, and rental as well. So rental has been something that our customers, you know, the fix and flippers and the developers, it's part of their strategy. So we're tailoring, you know, the development of that loan to exactly what our customers have been saying, you know, these are our priorities, these are what we need. What does that look like for a product for you guys, so yeah…   Michael: Awesome, we will definitely have to have you back on once that is fully flushed out because that sounds like I mean, it seems like a very logical progression, especially for value add or burn investors of hey, I got to fund the rehab and the purchase now I want to keep the thing can we do it all under one roof? That's exactly that's pretty interesting.   Kendall: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. The one the concept of the One Stop Shop. It's, you know, the value, there is something that we hear over and over every day from our customers. So, yeah…   Michael: Okay, well, we'll have to have a follow up conversation about that, too, then, Kendall, let's shift gears here just slightly, we've been talking a lot to newer investors, folks who are just getting started, talk to us a little bit about someone who's more seasoned, more sophisticated, maybe already has a rental portfolio, or maybe already has a flipping business. How should they be thinking about continuing growing their business you know, from a marketing perspective and deal acquisition, deal flow perspective?   Kendall: I think, you know, this is something that I see a lot with our customers and I talk to them a lot about, and I've actually done some, some coaching of people that are starting to scale up their businesses and going from, you know, the five unit portfolios to, you know, five properties to 10 to 25 to 100 plus, I think it's all about having that growth mindset and setting the strategies in place that position you really well to scale. So that's a lot of words, but essentially what I mean from the marketing standpoint is start to establish who your customer is, understand what their needs are, understand what their wants are, create a persona around them. It's kind of cheesy, but I tell it to everybody and you know the value that you do rive out of creating your ideal customer persona is something that you can use as a tool for almost every part of your business. So we do it at on that flip, we actually talk about our newbie investors, so we call them newbie, Nick, we give them a we give them you know, a headshot, we give her Yeah, totally. It's literally an avatar. Yeah, we give him a backstory, you know, we talked about his background and his education where it lives, you know, we've got VIP Veronica, who is operating at a different scale, you know, she's doing 50 units plus a year, she's got high velocity, she's got different needs than newbie Nick and, you know, we create and we, we develop different messaging for VIP Veronica versus newbie, Nick. So I would say like, be a little bit cheesy, and start to think about, you know, who your ideal customer persona is and actually give them a name, write down, you know, their motivations, write down exactly kind of what their challenges are, what their needs are and then from there, you can start to use that in your marketing and even in your relationships with your stakeholders.   So it's really easy to establish, you know, a strategy with, with your business partners, when you have, who that ideal customer persona is, and you can just reference them right away, like, okay, we're going to acquire this property, here's what's going for, it's our newbie, or it's our millennial Maria, once, you can actually start to kind of have shorthand for, you know, what the strategy is going to be at every single level. So from your financing partners, you can talk to your lender about what your strategy is, and who you're going after, all the way down to, you know, people that are even, you know, helping you support the the building services of your of your property. So you can start to stage you know, according to that ideal customer persona, and you can really start to market it and position it according to what their needs and wants are. So, there's a couple of, I would say, there are a couple of tactics for really figuring out who your persona is and I think the easiest way to figure out who it is, is start to look at your portfolio today, and understand where are you the most profitable and where do you have the best relationships with your customers? So it might be your tenants start to take a look at your customer profiles and understand, okay, these are my these are the people that I want to get more of what do they look like? You know, what maybe not what they look like, but these are the people I want more of? What are their motivations? Where are they located? What's their, you know, what are their needs? What are their wants? What's their style, you know, start to think about that and really use the data that you already have on your current customers to understand that.   Michael: Interesting, I want to go back to something you said at the beginning of, of that question, and can we get deep for a minute, if someone has gotten to a point, and they've got a four unit portfolio, let's say I mean, all of their limiting beliefs or what have got them to this point in their portfolio, so how does someone move past that, how does someone go get a growth mindset, if they're just, you know, hitting a wall?   Kendall: Let me give you an example of what worked for me, I would, I would say that I had a fixed mindset. When I first was starting out and it goes kind of back to my background as an academic, I thought everything kind of had to be perfect. I thought I had to get perfect grades, I thought I had to get you know, perfect application to graduate school, perfect papers, perfect publications, so that I could be successful and I learned pretty quickly, particularly moving into business and being in a non-entrepreneurial business that failing is actually what helped me get a growth mindset. So once I started getting into an environment where I had support from my boss, and you know, from my people around me that, okay, if you fail at this, it's okay like, the world is not going to end getting those repetition of failures in of, of, you know, trying new things that didn't work was actually what really helped me to break out of a fixed mindset. So you know, if you can do those, those mental cues of okay, this is okay, if I fail and telling yourself that even before you approach something new, and not saying no to things, because you think you might fail. I think that's it's actually a really easy and simple and elegant way to get you into a growth mindset. But it doesn't, it doesn't always happen overnight, at least in my experience. It took me a long time to understand that perfection was not attainable. It's not a goal and it wasn't helpful because it didn't help me grow at all.   Michael: I love that answer, can I dig one layer deeper?   Kendall: Let's yeah, let's do it.   Michael: Where can we go? We got the drill out. We're going we're going deep. So I agree. 1,000%. I think that once you accept that failure is inevitable you're going to move past it. But do you have any recommendations for folks on arenas or places where they can go do that in a safe environment? Because I think what prevents a lot of people from just getting started is that fear of failure, totally, and losing money blowing money, when or whatever the case may be for them. So how can they go get those repetitions in and fail safely?   Kendall: Yeah, you know, what worked for me was finding a group of like-minded folks, um, both in person and also digitally, like, I'm a person that communicates best in written form and what I found was that, you know, finding a community of people where I could share ideas, and it was online, that was where I was able to get the support, I needed to be able to fail. So from personal experience, I can say that find a group of like-minded individuals who share the same values that you do, and that can provide you support and you know, a lot of it is just kind of that that morale, when you are making a mistake, or when you do fail, they're there to cheer you on and to actually encourage you and say, hey, I went through this as well, it's cool, it's not that bad, you're not going to die, it's not that painful, you will be fine and just getting that kind of, you know, that reinforcement from those communities is, is super, you know, super, super helpful. So, there's a lot online, I think that you know, that these communities and kind of these niches online have been really helpful in building kind of that support and that community. I would say that in person as well, I mean, real estate tends to be, you know, a very relationship driven industry. So if there are local meetups where you have, you know, regional investors that are that are also looking at similar types of projects that you're looking at and have, again, kind of similar goals to you find those groups of likeminded people and talk about it, share your experience with them. You know, you'll probably be surprised at the fact that people have gone through exactly the same thing and they've come out the other side and it hasn't been too bad. In fact, it's positioned them really well to do better in the future.   Michael: Okay, well, that's so good. So everyone listening go out there, make a MySpace profile, go find some online community, just kidding.   Kendall: You don't Michael, but you know, I had a MySpace back in the day.   Michael: I love it, I love it. Kendall this was so good. We went all over the place covered a lot of really fun topics. If people want to learn more about you get in touch with you reach out to fund that flip for a deal. What's the best way for them to get in touch?   Kendall: Yeah, I I'm on LinkedIn. So just search my name Kendall Bazan, I my email is pretty simple. Since I came into fund that flip in the early days, it's just my first name, [email protected] and of course, you know, since we're, we're online fundthat flip.com is always open and we like, you know, it's funny because I mentioned earlier that real estate is so relationship based, something that has been a huge differentiator for us is like actually getting somebody on the phone. So our number is on our website and we pick up and we you know, we are there so you know, give us a call or find that flip comm also we are always open, so yeah…   Michael: Yeah, fantastic. Well again, thank you so much for coming on. It was such a pleasure and definitely look forward to having you back on in the future.   Kendall: Thanks Michael.   Michael: You got it, take care.   Alright, everyone, that was our episode a big big big thank you to Kendall super interesting topic. I'm definitely gonna be go checking out funthat flip.com and be learning more about both the borrow and the lending side because it sounds pretty darn interesting. As always, if you'd like the episode, feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever it is you get your episodes, and we look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing…