175 Kay's CBAC + Virtual Support

Kay’s story is a must-listen for everyone! Hopeful VBAC moms, CBAC moms, first-time moms,  and birth workers will be inspired by Kay’s wisdom, beauty, and strength. Kay was Julie’s first cross-country virtual doula client. She shares her journey of thoroughly preparing for a VBAC (complete with a color-coded binder!), having 100% confidence in her intuition, and ultimately having a euphoric CBAC. Yes, euphoric! Julie also shares a special lesson learned from Kay that she will never forget.“My biggest piece of advice to anyone would be to have that plan C. Have A, B, and C and be so at peace with all of them. Love every part of them because that made all the difference in the world.“I think it’s just as important to listen to all of those beautiful VBAC stories as it is to listen to beautiful CBAC stories because it does not have to be the trauma that most of us have experienced in our first C-section. It can be different.” Additional linksThe VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Community on FacebookFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everyone. This is Meagan and Julie. You are listening to The VBAC Link. I am currently driving in the car and Julie is her usual, very organized self sitting in front of the computer. We are excited to record today’s episode. This is Kay. She is actually a virtual client of Julie’s, so I’m excited to hear this story from her because I heard the story from Julie. So yeah. We are excited to get into this story. Review of the WeekAnd of course, we have a review of the week. Since I am driving, we are going to turn the time over to Julie, since I cannot read and drive, and then we will jump back into her story.Julie: Yes. We are quite a dynamic duo. We record in the dentist’s parking lot, on the road, in our home.Meagan: That’s true, yeah.Julie: I remember the early days. Oh my gosh, the episode with Dr. Cormano (Episode 15).Meagan: Oh man. I was in the car going to a prenatal.Julie: I was in my garage in the car and it was 80° outside. I was sweating, but I didn’t dare turn the car on because of the AC noise. Oh my goodness.Meagan: Mhmm.Julie: That was so crazy. Oh my gosh. We have come a long way, and then we have regressed a little bit because of COVID. But one day, we are going to be in a studio again and our kids’ schedules won’t be as crazy, or they will be crazier. When they are all in school during the day, that will just be nice because we won’t have to worry about all the preschool shuffling around and all of the things. But for now, this is what you get. We are real-life moms just like you. So, so excited to share Kay’s story today, but before we do, like Meagan said, I have a review. This review is from Apple Podcasts and the reviewer‘s name is Matthias.Band. The review title is, “So much love for this podcast.” She says, “I am a mom who has had two VBACs following the Cesarean birth of my firstborn. If I could give a gift to my post-Cesarean self while preparing for my VBACs, it would have been this podcast. I did not discover this podcast until after my last birth, but I have fallen in love with the hosts and the women who come here to share their stories. “Listening to Julie and Meagan feels so often like sitting down with friends due to their candor and obvious passion they bring to this facet of childbirth and early motherhood. I love this community they have created that genuinely understands the emotional impact of birth and the many reasons, both physical and psychological, why women pursue VBAC. Julie and Meagan are so knowledgeable, kindhearted, and obviously hardworking.“Keep up the good work. You are making an impact.”That is so sweet. I love that. Doesn’t that just make you feel so good, Meagan?Meagan: I know.Julie: Not going to lie, sometimes business is a little hard and sometimes things get a little bit rough. We love getting reviews like this because it really, really does keep us going. It lifts our spirits when times are more difficult than others and really these kind words just-- I just can’t even tell you how many times they have lifted me up when I have just been really struggling with life generally, but specifically some business stuff. So thank you. Thank you, Matthias.Band on Apple Podcasts. We appreciate your review so much.Kay’s storyMeagan: Okay, you guys. So, so excited to get into this story. Kay, if you’re okay with it, we would love to turn the time over to you.Julie: Wait, can I talk first for a minute?Kay: Sure. Please.Meagan: It would be out of character for you not to say something.Julie: Yes. So I’ve just got to-- you know how I am. I am going to try to not take up too much time because I want to give Kay plenty of time to tell her story. But Kay was my first virtual client that did not live in Utah. We all know that during COVID-19 and all of the hospital restrictions, and the lockdowns, and the difficult policies, and restrictions that were being placed under the families, most parts of the country don’t allow doulas in. There was a time when all of this started that they weren’t even allowing birth partners and husbands to be able to be there for these women’s birth. It has been a journey. We are out of the part where they don’t allow husbands or birth partners into the hospital, but in some areas, most areas are still restricting doulas. We are really lucky here in Utah that most hospitals are allowing one support person plus a doula right now, but in a lot of other parts of the country, it’s not like that. So something that has become more emergent in the birth world, in the doula world, is virtual doula support. What most people think of when they hear “virtual doula support” is, “I don’t want to be on Zoom or FaceTime with my doula the whole time. That just sounds weird. She is staring at us in the room and being like, ‘good job’ on the phone.” Let me tell you, virtual support looks so different than what you would think or would imagine. I have supported a couple of clients locally, virtual support just by force, because of a hospital switching policies the day before they had their baby and things like that. I’m sure, Meagan, you have dealt with the same thing, but it was really neat to have Kay reach out to me from across the country wanting doula support initially because the hospital that she was birthing at wasn’t allowing doulas and she was like, “Heck, if I’m going to have a virtual doula, I might as well have The VBAC Link as my virtual doula.”Kay: Right.Julie: So luckily, I had an opening. Let me tell you, it was such a beautiful experience. I am so glad that we connected. The hardest part about virtual support is just not being there when the baby is born. I was literally in tears when Kay was having her baby because I wasn’t there with them. But it’s pretty amazing. And so I am sure Kay is going to share part of that in her story with you as far as how she prepared and things, but without further ado, I am going to turn it over to my wonderful, digital client who I feel just as close to as if it was an in-person client, Kay.Kay: Thank you. Yes, it was quite a journey. This is my fourth child. So to go through, the first one was a vaginal birth. It took me 38 hours to birth that child and recovery was fine. I had my second birth and with this one, I opted to get an epidural right away. I dilated to 10 cm and everything was going great. I pushed for five and a half hours only to have a C-section after that. It turns out my little guy was wedged diagonally into my hip pocket. When the doctor pulled him out, she goes, “He’s sunbathing” because he had his hands behind his head and his legs crossed like he was just lounging at the pool. And then, my third baby was actually adopted in March. We had been trying for about two and a half years and thought adoption was our way to go for the rest of the children that we were going to have in our family. God had other plans. So we adopted my daughter in March and found out, I think it was in April or May, that I was pregnant.It was quite a surprise for both of us. So while I was having my newborn, I started researching VBAC. I came across The VBAC Link and when everything went virtual, I thought, “Hey, what the heck? I’m going to reach out to them and see if there is any chance that you would take a virtual client.” Lo and behold, Julie got back to me and we started our journey together. So once I started to learn everything, I did HypnoBirthing, I did Julie and Meagan’s class on The VBAC Link which was absolutely amazing. I did Spinning Babies®. I was doing my exercises. I had practiced how my birthing room was going to look. I had gotten tea lights and my essential oils. It was really important to me because I was planning to birth at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore and I knew that they were a very big hospital and I wasn’t sure what type of doctor I was going to get. So I stayed with my provider the whole time because you can see so many different providers at that location. I had just expressed my wants and my needs to have the birth that I desired and everyone was very supportive. But I was still a little iffy on the whole situation. I knew that if I was going to have the birth that I desired, I had to keep training and keep learning. So I am a bit OCD in that I had a color-coded binder with all of the different exercises and all of my notes that I had learned from Julie, and from HypnoBirthing and Spinning Babies®.Julie: I loved that binder. It made me so happy. You are just like me. I feel like we are soul sisters or whatever you want to call it because you are exactly like me.Kay: Yeah. It was great. But that’s why I wanted us to have you there so much because I knew as much as I planned and trained, when it came down to labor, sometimes you forget everything all at once. That’s why it was so nice to have you there. When the labor actually hit, that was another story. I hit my due date and nothing. I hit week 41 and nothing and girls, I was doing everything. Julie knows. I was doing my Miles Circuit. I was walking. I was doing curb walking and this child just said, “Nope. I just want to stay in you for as long as I possibly can.”At week 41 and, I think it was, five days, they did schedule an induction. I was so nervous. I almost left the hospital twice. I just didn’t feel like my body was ready and I think because of all the nerves, I just felt the baby pulling upwards instead of being in that nice, down position he had felt like he was in for the previous week. So after many conversations with Julie and then speaking with the doctors, I thought, “Okay.” We started the process. After talking to Julie, I came up with the idea of, “Hey, can you try to do a membrane sweep first and give me a few hours?” So that was nice. They did the membrane sweep. They did give me a few hours. Nothing really happened. With my previous birth, my water broke after my membrane sweep and things started to progress a little bit, but with this one, it didn’t happen.So the next step was the Foley bulb. That went well. I dilated to 4 centimeters fairly quickly, and then I pounced on the ball like crazy and I just wasn’t progressing any further, so they said, “Hey, we want to do a slow Pitocin.” So again, during all this time, I had Julie on text with my husband and I was texting with her. I think we did some phone calls too and I kept saying, “What is the best way to do Pitocin?” I couldn’t remember even though I had this beautiful binder in front of me about what the best way to do it was and Julie said, “Hey, this is what I recommend if you can do it,” and luckily, the hospital was very accommodating to that. So I think I did two units every hour I think it was.At that point, things were going well. The contractions were getting intense. It had gotten up to a level 8 of the Pitocin and I was going through a pretty intense contraction. Once it clicked up to level 10 of the Pitocin, I was in a lot of pain. I was having a hard time breathing. My husband was texting Julie and she was saying, “Hey, try this position. Try this position.” I labored on the toilet and I labored in the shower. I labored on all fours. I did everything that I could and it was just getting so intense to the point where I was having a hard time breathing in. I could breathe out beautifully, but I couldn’t breathe in and that’s the point when I said, I needed to get an epidural because it was taking so much out of me that I was a little nervous I was going to pass out or just not have the energy to push when the time came.So that point, I did get the epidural which was a godsend. I don’t know if you guys had felt like this if you had an epidural, but once I had it, I felt a little bit out of it. I had oxygen on my face and I felt like I was watching everything from above as I was trying the different positions to get baby to descend. All of a sudden, they asked if they could check me. As soon as I turned onto my back, the baby’s heart rate dropped and it wasn’t anything super scary. It was kind of a quick drop, and then they were able to stabilize baby and it was okay. They checked me and I was at 7 centimeters, so I thought, “Oh gosh, this is good. This is going really, really well.” But the baby was really high in my belly and after sitting in bizarre positions with the epidural, I didn’t feel like I could get him low. So thankfully again, if you have the choice to get a virtual doula or no doula, get the virtual doula because again, I was texting Julie saying, “Okay. What should I try now? How should I do this?”Thankfully, I also had a nurse that was trained in Spinning Babies®, so she suggested some positions. We were going to try the side-lying release. So we got me on my side and we started to do it. I probably was there for about a minute and baby’s heart rate dropped again. This time, it was pretty scary. His heart rate went down for what I thought was two minutes and later found out it was five minutes. My husband‘s face was absolutely white as a ghost as they kept saying, “We are not getting his heart rate back up. We are not getting his heart rate up.” There was definite panic in the room. Finally, I switched sides again and his heart rate did come up and they were like, “Just don’t move.” So I stayed in exactly the same position until baby was “happy again” and thankfully, he was.But it was every time I even tried to roll a tiny bit into a different position, the heart rate would drop again. I was definitely getting a little scared. So my husband looked at me and said, “I am getting a really bad feeling about this.” My heart dropped a little bit because I had wanted so bad to have a VBAC, but we are very religious people and I kept thinking, “If he’s getting this thought, there’s something to it.” So we stopped and we prayed the Rosary and we just really thought about what should be the best decision. In the middle, as we were praying the rosary, my husband kept saying, “I feel like somebody is holding the baby’s hand and not letting him descend.” I knew as soon as he said that, there was a gut instinct that said, “This is probably not our best solution to go ahead and try to push once I get to 10 centimeters, that it might be better to have a C-section.” I was nervous about this because I know the recovery of having a C-section and I have a 10-month-old baby at home. I didn’t want to not be able to pick her up or hold her, but at the same time, I wanted to get through this labor with a healthy baby and a healthy mama. He just kept saying, if we get into the pushing stage and he gets stuck, we are going to be in an emergency and I had that feeling too. I didn’t want to voice it because I had trained so hard. I did everything I needed to do and I mean, I ate, I think, six pineapples that week trying to get myself in labor. I ate it every single day. I did the exercises religiously, but you know when you get that gut feeling. and the one thing that I love about The VBAC Link course is that they tell you if you get that feeling, you need to trust your instincts. That’s one of the hardest things to do when you want a VBAC so bad.So I was scared. The doctor came in and I told her. I said, “Listen. I am not actually scared of the surgery. I’m scared of the recovery. I am afraid that something catastrophic could happen afterward like a blood clot or something crazy like that.” And because I had that VBAC Link training, I was able to say to the doctor, “Listen. You might think this is silly, but this is what’s bothering me and this is why I’m scared.” I literally said to her, “I am scared I’m going to get up and have a blood clot. I am scared you are going to try to get me to walk and I could have an aneurysm or something like that.” She was shocked that I asked those questions and said, “How did you even hear about that stuff?” I said, “Well, I do a lot of research and I have had a C-section before and you hear stories-- horror stories with vaginal birth, and horror stories with a C-section, but I need to know that you are going to look out for these things and be on my side and take care of me after the surgery.” She was really kind. She went through all of the risks, which were so minuscule. When she said the statistics of having something like a blood clot, or an aneurysm, or something like that afterward, it eased my mind big time.I think also having The VBAC Link training because you go over the risk of uterine rupture and then once you hear that the statistics are lower, your mind rests a little bit and it eases your mind. So once I heard the statistics for things that I was probably a little irrationally afraid of, it eased my mind and I don’t think I would have been able to do that if I didn’t have that training. Once I did get that training, it gave me the confidence to speak with the doctor about that stuff. So we went on and I went to my plan C. I told the doctor, “Listen.” I was not expecting to have a C-section, but because I made a plan A, a Plan B and I didn’t want to make a plan C but decided to make a plan C after I took your class, I knew if I had to have a C-section, these were the things that I wanted. The things that I wanted were, I wanted to have a clear curtain so that I could see my son. I wanted to have the cord pulse out for as long as humanly possible in a safe manner and I wanted to listen to music. I didn’t want to be in an environment that I was scared of. I also didn’t want my hands to be tied down. I don’t know if that happened with either of you guys, but in my first C-section, they had Velcro that strapped your arms down and that was traumatic.Julie: Yeah, me too.Kay: It was just a horrible feeling. I felt like I had no control over what was happening and I did not want to experience that again. I have done a lot of work to heal from that, and then I just was adamant about it. They were like, “Yeah. Absolutely.” They were very accommodating. So when we went into the surgery room, the atmosphere of the nurses, and the anesthesiologist, and my surgeon was so light. I mean, my surgeon was literally dancing as she dressed in her gown and stuff like that. Everyone was coming to talk to me and they had my Jesus music on. God bless their souls because I played-- have you guys heard the song Stand in your Love? It says over and over, “My fear doesn’t stand a chance when I’m standing in your love” and I played that song on repeat the entire surgery because it was the only thing that kept my mind grounded. My husband talked to me the entire time. The anesthesiologist talked to me the entire time. They were all joking and I was just so relaxed. My hands weren’t tied down. I had little straps I could hold onto it if I chose to. I had my Rosary in my hands and everything was just really light. And then they kept pressing down on my belly to try to get the baby out. They were pressing on my rib cage, actually. I kept saying, “You’re going to break my ribs.” It didn’t hurt that bad, but I could feel the pressure and that baby was so high up in my belly that it took a while to get him out, but once they did, they dropped the curtain. My son locked eyes with me the entire time while his cord pulsed out. They just held him there. That woman’s arms must have been so strong because my baby was 8 pounds and 11 ounces and she held him there the entire time. I think we were there for three or four minutes while the cord pulsed. And then as soon as I was done, they let my husband cut the cord and they brought the baby right to me. They didn’t do anything else. He came right and was right on my chest and sat there for a long time. They actually did finish the rest of the surgery and close me up and he was on my chest the entire time. In fact, my husband didn’t even get to hold him. And then when they were done, they did everything they needed to do. They measured him. They weighed him. My husband got to hold him as they were wheeling me back and it was beautiful. It was the most amazing experience. I was on cloud nine. I had just a calm sense that the peace that was in the operating room and the bubble that me and my husband were in is something I have never experienced before. It was just, it was a miracle. It was quite frankly probably one of the most beautiful births and situations I have ever been in. I attest it all to being prepared beforehand because I am definitely a people pleaser and I would have never went and said, “Hey. This is what I want.” You know? When they gave me, “No, I’m not sure about the clear curtain,” I said, “That is very important to me. Please, can you try to make that happen?” And they did. It was amazing. It was absolutely amazing. So I am so thrilled and so grateful for everything that you guys have bestowed upon me in terms of training and all that good stuff and for Julie being there virtually the entire time.Plan A, plan B, plan CJulie: Yeah. I love that. Before I get into a valuable lesson that you actually taught me during your birth, I want to have you talk more about having backup plans. Plan A, plan B, plan C. Do you want to talk more about that?Kay: Sure, sure. So plan A, for me, was going into spontaneous labor, not using any medications, and having my beautiful vaginal birth that I envisioned. I had a couple of other different ones in there, but that was the gist of my plan A. Plan B was if I have to get induced, to not use the epidural, and to stay as long as possible without the epidural. I had been in a 38-hour labor before with no epidural until hour 28, so I am very well aware of how painful contractions can be with Pitocin, but I was determined to just-- my goal was, okay. Plan B, if they have to induce me and do Pitocin, do two units every hour, and then have them turn it off so that my body could take over. That was my plan B. I also wanted to be able to birth the baby and catch him in my arms and bring him right to my chest. I just love that image. So that was part of my plan A and plan B. I did not want to plan plan C. I was just like, “I am not doing it. I don’t want to.” It wasn’t until I took your course that I said, “Okay. I probably should do this. It is the responsible thing to do. So I thought about it for a long time, “Okay. If I have to do a C-section, what would make me feel a lot more comfortable?” One of the things was listening to the different podcasts on The VBAC Link of people who had Cesareans that they thought were beautiful and that they enjoyed the process, and then doing my own research of just hearing people’s stories, so I came up with little things. Things like music made the hugest, biggest difference in the entire world. It just kept my mind calm and having the sheet-- I didn’t even know that there was a sheet before starting to research the stuff about having a clear sheet so you can see everything after they are doing the surgery. They don’t let you see it during surgery. But I would say my biggest piece of advice to anyone would be to have that plan C. Have A, B, and C and be so at peace with all of them. Love every part of them because that made all the difference in the world.Julie: Yeah. I really liked that about you. Most people, I mean we have talked about it before in the podcast, but most people are like, “Oh, good vibes only. Positive stories only. I don’t want to even think about a C-section because I don’t want to manifest something wonky out to the universe.” Something that I really like is your eagerness to learn and get educated, but also your faith.So Kay and I are from different secular backgrounds, but we both believe in God. No matter what you believe in, whether you believe in divine power or you don’t believe in anything at all, we all have our intuition that can guide us and trust us. It was really admirable when I was working with you, Kay. Through the whole way, all the way, through our prenatals, through your birth, even post-birth when we had our little visit, you always trusted in God, and you trusted in yourself, and you trusted that you knew what would be the right thing to do if plans ever had to change. And plans did change. That’s why having a plan A, B, or C-- I always call them, A is your perfect plan if everything goes perfectly, and then B is the backup plan, and then C is your Cesarean plan. I’d like to encourage all of my clients to have that, but not everybody wants to talk about it. That’s one thing we do go over in detail in our course, like you said, about the importance of having one of those. You can make it and know it’s available to you, and then just fold it up, tuck it in your pocket and never even think about it again. But if you need it, guess what? You pull it out and it’s there. You are prepared and you can enter into your birth in a really more confident way. I really like how you said that you were talking with your providers about your concerns. You were asking questions. They were talking with you. This is the thing, I think, that is hard for us to remember as people when we are working with providers and when we are working with people who do birth all the time is that they have a system. We all know that. You go into the system. You check-in. You labor. If you need an epidural, you need an epidural. If you need a Cesarean, you get a Cesarean, right?All of what they do is very routine and they are used to all of it, so they go through the steps and they go through the motions, but I think what we don’t give providers credit for is their willingness to deviate from the standard of normal. Not all of them. Keep in mind, I’m not talking about all of them. But I think most providers have that heart and mindset that if you just talk to them and ask questions about your concerns or about your options or be really insistent. Like for you, it was the clear drape. They were like, “We don’t normally do that,” and you were like, “No. I need that.” And they were like, “Okay well, let’s figure out how to make it work.” I think most providers if given the chance and if asked questions would respond in a similar way. And so I think that’s really great that you were able to stand up for yourself and the things that you knew based on what we had talked about and what you learned in our VBAC prep course for parents is that it gave you the confidence to ask that when you had to pull out your plan C.Kay: Yeah and you know what? I totally forgot to mention this. But before I got pregnant with my son, I went through two and a half years of fertility issues. Unexplained infertility and just went through the gamut of issues. I knew that I couldn’t handle it mentally with IVF and all that sort of stuff, so I stayed on more of a holistic path of trying to get pregnant and just do that type of thing. They were always pushing me to get surgery and said, “You know, something is probably going on. You should probably get surgery to look at your ovaries, look at your uterus, look at your tubes to see if anything is going on.” So you know what? When I was on the operating table, I said, “You know, I saw (the doctor’s name),” and I said, “Hey, can you do me a favor? I went through two and a half years of fertility issues and they were always pushing me to get surgery to see if everything was healthy on my female parts. Can you take a look for me while you’re in there?” It was as if she was in the grocery store and I was like, “Hey, can you grab some milk for me?” She was like, “Yeah, sure. No problem. Let me get through this part and then I will check them for you.” And she did. She went through and she goes, “There are two beautiful ovaries. Your tubes look great.” I said, “What about my intestines? They always mentioned something about my intestines like maybe there was scar tissue?” And then she was like, “Okay, give me a couple of seconds.” And then a minute later she goes, “Oh, your bowels look beautiful.”Meagan: What a weird compliment to have, huh?Kay: Right?Meagan: “Oh, your bowels-- they look beautiful.” You’re like, “Thank you. I am glad that my bowels are in good shape.”Kay: It’s so true because--Meagan: But it’s a really good thing.Kay: Yeah, and after having people question that something is wrong for so long, it starts to get in your head and you think, “Oh my gosh, is there something wrong? Should I have gone through with the surgery?” But I would have never in a million years asked that question if I have not gained the confidence through the parent prep course. There is no way I would’ve ever done that. But now, they closed me up and I go, “Hey, I know my insides are all healthy too.” It’s like a bonus.Julie: Well and I just imagine you sitting there on the operating table. You are literally open and having these conversations with a provider. Oh my gosh, to be a fly on the wall. I mean, hopefully, there are no flies in the operating room. You know what I mean. But just how actively involved in your birth you were throughout the whole process. There are so many more details that I know that I feel like we can talk about your birth for two hours, but I want to share a lesson that I learned from your birth.Julie’s lesson So during this process, I was just at home and as Kay said, sending text messages, and taking phone calls from them, and helping them through labor with different position ideas, and different things to do and try, and how to help them through the induction process, and all those things. And so I’m just hanging out, waiting, and checking in if I haven’t heard after so long. And then the last I had heard, her husband had sent me a text message asking about a different position because baby wasn’t engaging. I am super cool about that. I know all these positions. I sent them a couple of ideas and I am like, “Okay. If this doesn’t work, then call me. I know a be-all-end-all to baby engagement that I’ve only seen not work one time in my entire doula career.”And so I was just waiting, expecting them to say, “Oh yeah! Baby is engaged,” or “Okay, we need to try the one more thing.” But I get a text message from her husband saying, “Baby’s heart rate is not doing so great. We are going into a Cesarean. We are at peace with it.” It completely caught me off guard. I was like, “Oh my gosh. What is going on? I started crying to my husband.” I am like, “Oh my gosh. These poor clients. Their birth ended in a Cesarean” because I just made all these assumptions that you were not okay with it because most of the time when people try for a VBAC, they feel at least some degree of sadness at the loss of that birth experience. And so I text back and I’m like, “Okay. If you are confident in that decision, I support you. Let me know if you have any questions,” and then her husband was like, “All right. Pictures are coming next.” SoI could see a picture of the baby and I am like, “Okay well, I guess that’s it. It’s settled.” And so I was with my husband just watching shows. It was in the middle of the night. We were watching shows waiting to hear the word and I wanted to be able to chat with her for a little bit afterward while she was in the recovery room. I remember when I finally got the call, my doula-self was ready. I was ready to help her cope through the loss of this birth experience that she wanted so badly because that’s what we do as doulas. We help people cope through hard things sometimes. Kay, you called me and we were talking. I could hear a little baby cooing in the background and there was hustle and bustle in the room. After you had talked to me for a little while, I was like, “Okay well, I will let you go for tonight. We will talk more tomorrow, but I just want you to know that it’s okay to be so excited that you have a happy, healthy baby right now, but also, it’s okay to feel sad about the loss of that VBAC experience that you wanted and worked so hard for,” because that is what I usually tell people if they end up in a repeat Cesarean. I am like, “It’s okay to feel both of those feelings,” trying to bring this peace to her and say, “It’s okay to feel all of the things. We need to feel them.” I will never forget the words that you said to me. You said, “Okay. I will keep that in mind for later, but right now, I am just on cloud nine.”You could tell you were smiling. You were so happy. God was with you through your whole journey. You were prepared. You made all the right decisions and knowing more about what happened now, it’s easier for me to look back and see that. Maybe I would have said different things if I was actually there with you in person, but it took me off guard for a little bit. I am like, “Oh my gosh.” Even as doulas-- Meagan, I am sure you are still learning too. Every birth, we take something with us and it helps us be a little bit better of a doula for the next person that we support. That’s one thing I’m never going to forget is that, and you’re probably the first client I’ve ever had that’s actually said that to me fresh out of the Cesarean. Baby was less than an hour old and you were so confident that you were supported, that you tried your best, and that you were educated, and you made all the right choices that all you were was on cloud nine and that you could look back at your birth so instantly with such happiness. I mean, the conversation has been the same since we have chatted ever since then. It was just a really good thing for you to say that to me because sometimes we just make assumptions about how people feel about their births or how they respond based on other people that we have seen in similar situations.Meagan: Well, and I think that sometimes as a doula, especially doulas who have had Cesareans and then gone on to VBAC or haven’t gone and know the passion behind wanting to go on and have a VBAC sometimes can reflect a little bit more in their own experience of how they feel as a doula because they knew that you wanted that, right? So the hardest thing, and this is maybe a message for birth workers. As Julie was saying, you gave this lesson to her. For birth workers, we have to remember not to assume that someone else is going to feel the way we felt about our own birth because I feel like there are sometimes too where I have had a client go in for an induction and I was super bummed for them, but at the same time, they were completely content with it because again, in the end, they look back and they were like, “I did everything and this is the way it happened. I chose this and I feel good about this. I feel confident about this.” And as birth workers, we have to be okay to be confident with them as well and be okay with their outcome.Julie: Yeah. I think that’s maybe one of the hardest parts about being a doula is we get so emotionally invested when working with all of our clients, and then when we see clients go through the process of an unplanned Cesarean, no matter if it’s a VBAC or a CBAC or just a first initial Cesarean, I think we always start mourning the loss for them-- and not always, maybe, but at least for me, I have to really check my headspace to make sure that I don’t start making assumptions about how they feel about their birth before they tell me how they feel about their birth. I totally did that with you, Kay. I totally just had my speech all ready to go. I was getting ready for when you were going to call me and it was just like-- you know, we all learn lessons along the way, and sometimes we have to re-learn these lessons and re-learn these lessons. That was just very valuable to me that you said that. I will never forget it and the happiness in your voice. I hung up the phone after talking with you and I looked at my husband. I was still crying a little bit because I was so sad for you. But why was I sad for you when you were so happy? I told my husband-- he was like, “How did the call go?” I was like, “Well, she’s really excited and happy. So I guess I am really excited and happy too for her.”It was just such an interesting change of feelings. Maybe that’s just the thing that comes with virtual doula support is that we help, and support, and send information, and call, and answer questions just as if you were to do it in person, but because we are not there sensing the emotions and feelings of things, I pulled in my own emotions. I will remember that conversation after your birth for the rest of my life probably.Kay: But it’s interesting too because I have been on both sides of it. I have had a vaginal birth and I had a C-section after not expecting to have a C-section in any way, shape, or form, and then with that C-section, I had all those feelings that you are referring to. I had the disappointment and the “what if.” What if I tried this? What if I tried this? And then having this C-section, because it was my own because I dictated it, the nurses and the doctors, not the doctors, the nurses-- I think they were disappointed when I decided for a C-section, but I knew it was the right decision. We had those instincts. We prayed about it. We had that gut intuition and that is completely why I felt so in control because I know if I kept going that I could have been in a dangerous situation. My gut was just telling me, “This is not the right choice.” And because I had that, my husband had it, it was my plan. It was nobody else’s plan except mine, where the first one, I was not in control. So I think it is so normal, but I feel like there should also be a, “your Cesareans can be beautiful too” because this was such a beautiful, beautiful experience. Even though you train for it, it can still be so peaceful, and so I will look back on this birth with nothing but happy memories because I did my best. I trained. I tried everything and this was the path that I was meant to take. I am totally, so at peace with it and I absolutely love it. I feel that Cesarean pride.Julie: I love that you said that. I love how you said that this was your plan. This was not anybody else’s plan. Even though it wasn’t plan A, it was still your plan because you had taken the time to make a plan C and you had taken the time to get educated and trust your intuition. You really trusted and honored that instinct and what you needed to do. So I just love that, that this was your plan. It was nobody else’s plan and I think that’s really important.Q&AWell, I think we have a couple of questions to ask you. We have been forgetting to ask questions, Meagan. Last week when we recorded five episodes, I don’t think we asked questions in a single one.Meagan: Oh, I know.Julie: So it’s been a while.Meagan: I know. I know.Julie: But I remembered this time. Do you want to ask them?Meagan: Yes, sure. So what is your best tip for someone preparing for a VBAC?Kay: Preparing for a VBAC, I would say to make plans A, B, and C. I know it is something we said over and over again, but to have all of those plans, and know that each one of them can be absolutely beautiful, and to kind of revel in each of those plans. If A happens, awesome. Euphoric. If B happens, it’s also euphoric and if C happens, it can also be euphoric if you have this, this, and this in place. And to figure out what is going to be important for you. So I think it’s just as important to listen to all of those beautiful VBAC stories as it is to listen to beautiful CBAC stories because it does not have to be the trauma that most of us have experienced in our first C-section. It can be different. That would be my advice.Meagan: I love that.Julie: Love it.Meagan: I love it. I also know listening to CBAC stories, or uterine rupture stories, some of the harder stories that we share on here can be hard to hear because it can be something that you are like, “Wait, no. That is not what I want to hear because I don’t even want to imagine myself going there.”Kay: Right.Meagan: But there’s so much you can learn with those stories. So I try to encourage people to find a space for that. That might take time, but find a space for it because I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you listen. You learn more and you will feel more in control at the end.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? 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