179 David Arrell Welcome to Fatherhood (WTF) Tips for Dads!

Dads are constantly flooded with messages to be helpful and supportive to their birthing partner, but where are those specific tips on how to do just that?Cue David Arrell. David has developed a passion for everything surrounding birth with his main focus centered around helping dads learn the things he wished he knew when he became a dad for the first time. According to his own words, “I am just a dude who has been through this journey.”With his very specific dad tips as well as big ideas, David’s advice will take your birth support partner from feeling clueless, guilty, and overwhelmed to feeling hopeful, empowered, and inspired. When both partners learn to be a strong team during pregnancy, their bond during labor and throughout parenting will thrive even more.And the tip that gets 100% of his recommendation? “Dude, Hire a Doula.”Additional linksThe VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsDavid's website: Welcome to FatherhoodWelcome to Fatherhood: The Modern Man's Guide to Pregnancy, Childbirth, and FatherhoodFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy, happy Wednesday everybody. This is Meagan and Julie. You are listening to The VBAC Link. You are going to be excited just like we are for this episode today, so make sure you are somewhere where you can hear all the words, and honestly, you probably want your birth partners to list them as well. We have David Arrell. He is an author, entrepreneur, consultant, and men’s coach currently in Colorado. We have actually had quite a few special guests in Colorado which is really fun. He is passionate about coaching men on how to more fully embrace and embody help, masculinity, and especially through the powerful modalities of partnership. His most recent work-- now I can’t speak.Julie: Sorry.Meagan: You’re fine. --in this area is a book and we have the book. We are so excited. It’s called Welcome to Fatherhood and I really like it because it is like “WTF”.Julie: WTF.Meagan: Through the whole thing, it’s the modern man’s guide to pregnancy, childbirth, and fatherhood better known as WTF. So this is really a big deal because in so many ways, and I even talk about this with my doula clients. There are so many things in pregnancy that are so woman-focused or birther-focused, right? We kind of forget sometimes about dad and his role. That’s, as the doula, so important for me not to forget that and make sure that dad doesn’t feel that because I remember the day in my second labor. I remember my husband had to sleep on the couch in the corner and everyone coming in not addressing him, not talking to him, not saying anything that’s happening, not asking him has an opinion on anything, and it only revolves around me, and so I just think this is so awesome. A lot of dads enter childbirth clueless not because they don’t want to know, but because people don’t include them, right?And then fatherhood. I also know that as a mom and my husband, we’ve had times where I’m like, “No. I am doing it right and he is doing it wrong.” I remember someone saying, “You are both doing it right. You are doing it your way,” and I loved that. So I am really excited to talk to him today and get to know more about his book, and the role, and the fourth trimester coming back home, and how to give these tips to these dads because they need them.Julie: I was just going to jump in and say, “I love this,” because David, our guest today, literally wrote the book for dads about the fourth trimester, what to do when you get home with baby, well, I mean, it is for pregnancy, and childbirth, and fourth trimester, right? So that’s the first three months after the baby is born. It’s from a dad‘s perspective. He gets it. He has been there. That’s what me and Meagan really like about it because, at The VBAC Link, we are doulas, but we have also had VBACs. We have been there. We get you. I feel like he is right on our level, but talking to the dads because yes, like Meagan said, dads, a lot of time, get forgotten. I wish my husband would’ve had something like this back when we started into parenting because he was completely oblivious about pregnancy, and birth, and everything. I dragged him to a HypnoBirthing class but that’s about it, and now he knows way more about birth than he ever thought he would ever have dreamed to know about, but this is going to be really helpful. So we are excited. We have asked our social media followers questions. We have some questions for him. Review of the WeekJulie: But anyway, before I keep talking, holy cow. Let me read a Review of the Week.This is from Natalie in San Diego. It is on Apple Podcasts and she says, “I am SO thankful I found this podcast. I’ve always wanted a vaginal birth and felt like I could never get one after my C-section in 2018. I started listening to this podcast when I got pregnant (currently 28 weeks) and then I asked my provider if I was a good candidate and she said, ‘No.’”Dang it. Oh my gosh. Sorry. That kind of caught me off guard. That was probably a little bit of an inappropriate laugh. That’s what I do when I get caught off guard. I laugh inappropriately. All right, let’s see.“She said, ‘No,’ so I resigned to the fact that I would need a RCS with this pregnancy and stopped listening for about a month but the nagging feeling that I could ask more questions and advocate for myself more just never went away. I started listening again and realized that so many women switch providers late in the game so why couldn’t I? After requesting my post-op report and asking my OB more questions, I realized that I am a good candidate and that she just wasn’t supportive, so at 26 weeks I switched to an amazingly supportive provider here in San Diego, hired a doula, and signed up for HypnoBirthing!” Hey, speaking of HypnoBirthing…“I’m doing everything I can to educate myself and am so hopeful for a VBAC this April or early May.”Oh my gosh, maybe like right now.“I wouldn’t have had the courage to do any of this without the stories from the women on this podcast so thank you!!!”Do you like my commentary? I don’t think I can read a review without jumping in and putting my own thoughts into the review. Anyway, talk about being long-winded. Okay so, thank you for the review. We love reviews. You already know that if you haven’t had a chance yet, please go leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google or Facebook. Wherever you leave us a review, it will help us reach other people, so if you enjoy the podcast and think everybody should have a listen, definitely go ahead and give us a review in whichever is in the easiest place for you to do so.Q&A with David ArrellMeagan: Okay, David. We are excited to dive in with you. We have questions and all these things that we want to ask you, but I would love to invite you to share a little bit more about your book because I know I just went right through it. But tell us more. What inspired you to do this?David: Sure. Thanks for having me on, ladies. I really appreciate it. I think part of my inspiration was the gap that I experienced as a guy who has really committed to trying to be that “helpful and supportive partner” and I thought I was doing all the things. As our first pregnancy, and then ultimately the labor and delivery, and then that first experience for us of that fourth trimester, I have looked back and I realized there are so many opportunities where I wish I had done some things a little bit differently, but I realized I didn’t get the information, or the education or the encouragement that I felt would have helped me be that much more helpful and supportive for my wife during her pregnancy, and childbirth, and coming back home. So I looked around and even the birth classes I took, the amazing doula we worked with, which I will circle back to later, and some of the books I read, there just wasn’t that sort of succinct, clear sort of discussion of some of the things that are really important for us guys to really get a better sense of. And also, just some specific things like, “Hey, guys. Really think about doing this,” or “If you did this one thing a little bit differently, you might have more success.” So that was my main inspiration. It was to pave the path a little easier for the guys coming after me who are going to be going through their own sort of pregnancy adventure.Meagan: Love it. Love it. You know, I have a client, a husband, who started a podcast. Kind of the same thing. He was just like, “After the first birth experience, I just realized there was so much more that dads needed to know,” so I love what you guys are doing. This is going to be awesome. So are you ready for the list of questions? Julie, I don’t know if you want to go back and forth, but we have a list of questions that some of our followers have asked. Julie: Yeah.Meagan: if you don’t mind, I would love to jump into those.Julie: Let’s do it.David: Sure. Let’s jump right in.Meagan: Perfect. Okay, so number one is: Best advice for husbands to support wife in labor? I know you talk about pregnancy a lot in your book too. You talk about all of it, all the trimesters, but we are going to jump right into labor. Best advice for husbands to support their wives in labor?David: Sure. The way I describe that journey though, going into labor, is if the pregnancy is a rollercoaster going up the hill, slowly working its way to the top, once you realize, “Oh wow. We are really in labor,” that’s when that rollercoaster crests the hill and goes zooming down the other side. It’s a very different sort of immediacy for all parties concerned.The main thing I tell the guys out there is Big Idea #10 in the book. The book has Big Ideas and Dad Tips. But Big Idea #10 is that your new mantra is to be attentive, be calm, and be competent. At the end of the day, regardless of all the other things going on, if you as the dad, the partner, perhaps the most important support partner in the room here, if you can maintain that mantra and really be attentive to mama and all of the things that are happening for her whether it’s holding a hand, or rubbing a brow, or adjusting a position for more comfort, or be calm.There are definitely times I know in my wife’s childbirth and some of the guys I talk to also where things get a little active, but still, for us guys, we have to be calm. We have to be that rock in the storm of the emotions and feelings for our partners to connect to. And then being competent. This comes down to feeling like you have done the work ahead of time with the education and the practice where you feel pretty good about what your role is, what it’s not, and how to really show up as that competent person throughout this process. So that’s the mantra. Be attentive, be calm, and be competent.Meagan: Yes. I love that. You know, something that happened in one of my labors-- I have had three babies and my third baby, my labor was 40--Julie: Are you going to tell the story about the pillow? You should tell the pillow story.Meagan: Oh no, but I should. 42-hour long laborDavid: Wow.Meagan: My husband had a not-so-supportive moment where I was doing my thing in my zone. Sometimes we moan. That’s what we do. Our uterus is the strongest muscle in our body and it’s contracting around a baby really hard. It doesn’t feel awesome so you have to work through it, right? He totally shoved a pillow in my face and told me to muffle myself because he and the other kids were trying to sleep.Julie: I think that Rick needs a copy of your book.Meagan: I know. But there was a moment in my labor and I had been laboring for a really, really really, long time, and what had happened that I just still to this day will remember the feeling that came over me. All he did was touch my back and lean into me, kind of just grazed around my head and my shoulders, and it was a complete moment of, “I am not alone in this,” even though I knew I wasn’t alone. I had a great team. Just that touch was exactly what I needed and like you said, it could be a touch of a brow, or an adjustment, or just being there. It was just amazing. So I would not disagree at all with that.David: I’m glad he bounced back. That’s good. That’s good.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Between that and then when he looked at me and was like, “Remember, this is what you wanted.” I was like, “This is not what you say to me right now.”David: Well, that’s the trick. So many of us guys get these-- the general vibe is we are told to be helpful and supportive.Meagan: But you don’t know how.David: But we are not given explicit instruction beyond that and so we guess, and then we guess wrong, and we get frustrated, and so that’s exactly it. It’s the different challenges that we go through and the learning curves that can be really steep sometimes.Meagan: Absolutely.Julie: Yeah. I get that. Do you know what’s so funny? While you were just talking, we are actually going to make the link to where you can go and buy David’s book Welcome to Fatherhood and the link, I just had to say this because it is so funny. The link is going to be thevbaclink.com/wtf. So we will make it super easy for you to go and find his book.Meagan: I love it.David: Exactly. That sentiment is very popular.Julie: I mean, yes. You started at Tip #10, right? So I am just like, “Yeah. It’s really good stuff.” I haven’t read all of it, but I have skimmed through it and I have had my husband skim as well and there is some really good stuff here. So we are going to put it in the show notes. This is normally what we would do at the end of the episode, but I just had to say it. I am making the link right now. So anyway. Great stuff.I remember my husband felt helpless too. For my Cesarean birth, he still says it was the scariest moment in his life. Watching me on the operating room table, not knowing if I was okay, not knowing if baby was okay and I’m sure he would have really appreciated this type of advice to help him because men instinctively have this nature to support their partners and fix the problem, right? They want to be strong and they want to be able to comfort them, and childbirth is such a foreign concept that it can really-- what are the words I’m looking for? It can really just, it’s not familiar to you. So you don’t really know what to do and it can cause birth partners sometimes to feel a little hung up, and uncertain, and unsure, so just giving them these tools, like you talked about, and telling them what to do-- yeah. You are supposed to be supportive of your wife during labor, but this is how you do that. I think it’s so valuable. It’s so valuable. So I really appreciate that.Oh, next question. I guess that’s on me.David: Well, let me jump in with one quick thing here.Meagan: Sure.David: One of the challenges as guys I have seen happen in my experience and some of my buddies is that we get into the labor and delivery and like you mentioned, it’s overwhelming, it’s a novel experience, but then also, that sort of fix-it vibe just doesn’t work. There’s nothing for us to fix. Our partners are maybe going through some pretty intense experiences and sensations, and we are just sort of supposed to be-- you know, we feel very helpless sometimes. I remember at one point, my wife was squeezing my head really hard and she was really having a challenging series of contractions there and I just felt so helpless. And so that’s where I think this mantra comes in, but I definitely wanted to touch base on one other thing. I think it’s one of the Dad Tips that I am very strong on. Most of them are recommendations, but this one, I am very strong on and that’s Dad Tip #7: “Dude, Hire a Doula.”Julie: Yes.David: That would get 100% of my recommendation energy. Some of them are 60, 70, does this work for you? But dude, hire a doula. That doula is going to be your wingman too. Not just your partner’s, but your wingman to really help you. They can give you some tips. They can give you some direction. They can help normalize some of the beeping and some of the other things that are going on. Again, I can circle back to this a little bit later, but that’s definitely what will help you focus on your job which is to be that supportive partner. Most dads out there are not birth professionals, so you can just focus on your partner and your mantra, and let your doula really help adjust you as necessary. So I didn’t want to skip over that Dad Tip #7: “Dude. Hire a Doula.” Please.Julie: I love that you said that. It reminds me of an article I read a long time ago. I think it was called, Just Hire the Damn Doula. It was a blog.David: Perfect.Julie: it was a dad‘s perspective and he was just like, “This is why you need a doula. Do you know what to do when she is at 4 centimeters and she’s only been there for three hours? No, you don’t. Do you know how much blood is normal? No, you don’t. Do you know what positions to do to help or what labor positions to help encourage baby to descend? No, you don’t know that.” He was just like, “You just need a doula.” Anyway, that was a really broad explanation of the article, but I love that. As a doula myself, I make my clients’ partners be present at their prenatal visits because it’s really important to me to not only get to know the dynamic of their relationship so I can better strengthen that during the labor process, but also so I can get to know the dad and how to support him because doulas are also for dads. I know a lot of times they think, “Oh yeah, doulas are just for the mom, but we are here just as much for you guys to help you know how to best support your partner. The best feeling in the whole world is right after the baby is born and then the dad comes over and gives me a great big hug and I am totally not a hugger. Like as I doula, I can put my hug face on and I can hug if people want touch and stuff, but by nature, I am not a hugger. But when a dad comes and grabs me off my feet-- I just remember this one particular moment. He spins me around and he is like, “Thank you so much.” This was after a VBAC birth and I was just like, “Wow. This is really cool.” It is just really extra special when the dads say those kinds of things.Every dad is a little bit different, but I really appreciate that you say that. I think it’s important because a lot of times, dads think that doulas will replace them, but really, a good doula will really work on enhancing your relationship in knowing how to better support your wife. Okay, ready for the next question?David: Sure.Julie: All right. So I don’t know. We kind of have already talked about this. I think there might be some overlap a little bit in some of these things, but you have got lots of great tips and advice in your book, so I am sure that we are not even going to scratch the surface into that, but the question is: What do you tell men to do to support women during pregnancy?David: The subtitle of the book is “Better connected, better prepared.” And so I think that focus really helps shape some of the suggestions that follow in that envelope and that’s what is so important. I think some of the dads out there-- I know for me, that connecting bit was tricky because my experience of pregnancy is sort of like it’s happening over there whereas, for my wife and every other person who has been pregnant, it’s literally the biggest deal ever. It’s like, “No. This is now. I am already a mom. I am monitoring my vitamins, and sushi, and which cheese I should eat,” and all of these different things. That sense of motherhood is very real but whereas for us dads, a lot of times, we don’t think we are dads until the baby gets here.So one of the things I think that’s important to remember is that both of those truths are true for each person, but for us dads, there is plenty of opportunity for us to reach over and really try to better connect with mama and her experiences, and just knowing how real and important that is, is a great first step to putting that as a top-tier priority rather than just sort of like, “Oh yeah. We are pregnant and the baby will be here in a couple of months,” kind of thing.So there are so many things you can do as the dad to really get in there. I mentioned hiring a doula is a great thing, a birth class where are you are excited and you want to take on that. You’re just as excited about the birth class as mama is. That’s a great way to really foster that connection where you are going through that together and learning about it together. Another thing I like are some of these pregnancy tracking apps where-- I know my wife and I really enjoyed each week, as the pregnancy progressed, sitting down and watching the five or ten-minute little video about what’s happening this week. Some of them are pretty funny. They compare the size of a growing baby to French pastries or random, exotic animals, and so we would laugh about how baby is the size of a hedgehog this week or the size of a croissant, a big one.So those things where you’re really connecting with mama and really doing your part to get really on the inside of her journey as well, all of those things are great ideas because at the end of the day, the goal is to really have that relationship be really strong and vibrant as you are going through the delivery, and then you come home for that fourth trimester because now you’re parents together. Now is not the time to figure out how to be a team. Being a team starts during that pregnancy.Meagan: Yes, yes. Love that. I love that. If you can walk in as a team, into parenthood, it’s just going to set yourself up so much better.Julie: And can I just say, dad? Even if you don’t love the whole “baby is the size of a kumquat” thing, just pretend you do.David: Exactly.Julie: Just pretend.David: Exactly.Julie: Just fake it until you make it.Meagan: Or if the class that you are taking is HypnoBabies or HypnoBirthing and you’re like, “Oh, this is really weird,” try your hardest to get in there. I know sometimes it is far-fetched or far out there and it’s like, “This is so strange,” but this is something that she may have picked that resonated with her to help her cope through this labor journey, and crazy enough, it will connect. Like when you said, “Take childbirth education classes,” it will connect you two together so much more and help you in all stages.Julie: I love it.David: Exactly. It’s funny, I’ve heard some dad say, “Well, I am not having a baby, you are.” Like, discussing this with their partners about these different things and you know, not that they are adamant about it, but that’s their reality and I’m like, “Yeah dads. I get it.” Having a baby is a huge deal. I mean, it’s easy for some guys to think, “Well, that’s how all of us got here. There may be one or two test-tube babies running around, but we all got here this way,” and it’s like, well, this is the first-time experience or second-time experience for your partner. This is a very huge deal. Don’t look at it in the abstract. Look at it in the concrete. Your partner is excited and enthusiastic, as are you. It’s meaningful. It’s a little bit scary. There’s a lot of uncertainty. Really get in there to be that supportive partner by connecting with her and her journey rather than sort feeling like you need to stay on your side of the fence in your journey. So that connection piece is so important.Julie: Great life advice too.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, seriously. You know what? Are you going to write the next one on marriage? Because all of these tips-- this is also how to have a really great date. Julie: We’re taking notes. I’ll give it to my husband. I’ll be like, “Read this. Just kidding.”David: That all becomes so much more pressing once baby gets here. I am a terrible illustrator but if I had any skill, I would have drawn a little series of two stick figures: mama, dada, and then a little small tiny baby stick figure. This is what you think it’s going to be, and then the second one would have been the same size mama, dada, and then this giant Michelin Manbaby illustration like, this is the impact of a new baby on your lives. It is not this third thing that joins you.Meagan: It’s not tiny.David: No. It’s just the middle and the center of everything.Meagan: Yes.David: So now is the time to forge those teammate bonds.Meagan: Love that.Julie: Yes, absolutely.Meagan: Love that. Okay, so this is a hard one because sometimes I know it can be daunting when you are in the birth room and in labor and stuff, but it says: Do you encourage men to stand up for their wives’ wishes during labor and birth? And I’m going to add on to that one and say: If you do, what do you feel like is the best way for a dad to say, “Okay. I know she didn’t want this. I am going to try to make sure that we go about this a different way”?David: Well, my first answer is yes, absolutely. Dad is the main support person looking out for the bigger picture. I know there were times in my wife’s-- especially with our first baby where she couldn’t hear anybody else in the room. She couldn’t see anybody else, hear anybody else. It was sort of that fugue state that some women go through and she needed me to basically repeat everything that the doula was asking or our OB was asking.So yes, you need to be fully connected there. This circles back to-- I mentioned a doula already, but having that really trusted birth team where both mama and dada can really feel like their birth team is on the same page with you. They are looking out for your best interest and baby’s best interest obviously as well. But that birth team coming in, as I mentioned before, most dads aren’t going to be birth professionals, but that’s where that birth team comes in.So to whatever degree you can start with that team, really be all on the same page. We have gone over the birth preferences. We understand where we want to go with this whether it’s what types of pain management we want to use, with breathing, or massage, or etc. But there are times where things might get a little tricky.Like for example, during our first birth, we had a very low intervention birth, no pain medications, and at one point, my wife was struggling a little bit. They wanted to put an oxygen mask on her face and she did not want that. She was trying to swat it away and I felt like I needed to go with her wishes rather than whatever the nurse was trying to do. And so I gently removed the oxygen mask from her face. I looked at both our doula as well as the OB and I am like, “if she doesn’t absolutely need this right now, then it’s only going to cause her more duress and anxiety to be fighting off this mask which is not what we are looking for.” And they both agreed. But that was on me to not just sort of automatically go with whatever is happening, but to remind them of what our plan was.So again, absolutely stand up for those wishes during the labor and birth. The more you are on the same page with both your wife or your partner and that birth team ahead of time, the easier it is for you to do that because you are not worrying about somebody coming in and trying to change the birth plan, or there is a shift change and a new OB comes in and they have a different idea or they haven’t read your birth preferences, so the more you’re clear about that as a team, I think the easier it is for us guys to be less focused on being an intervention blocker and more focused on being that supportive teammate with our mantra of being attentive, and calm, and competent, focusing on our birthing partner and being supportive for her.Meagan: Yes. I love that. So tell me, I am trying to think how to ask this. What tips would you give for those dads who are very medical-minded? and trust-- I don’t want this to sound negative. My husband is very much like, “What the doctor says, we do because the doctor is the professional. He went to school. He knows it.” But then there are also times where I am like, “But that’s really not what I want and I have researched differently.”He told me that he felt like I put him in a really hard place because he was like, “I feel like I was against you and the doctor because I believed what the doctor was saying but you wanted something more. I wanted to make you happy, but I wanted to do what he said because I was worried.” Do you know what I mean? What tip, if you have any, specifically for that type of situation where we have got a dad who doesn’t know how to navigate that feeling that they have?David: I think you hit a really, that’s a really perfect space because that’s where it can be so tricky for us guys. Especially if we have had some experiences in the past where doctors have been helpful or if we have had experiences in the past where they have been unhelpful. We are bringing our own stuff into this equation also. And I think, I know doulas are explicitly focused on the non-medical aspects of all of that birth, but having a doula with you where you can at least have a consultant. It’s okay in about 98% of the circumstances to say, “You know what? I need to think about this for a minute.”Julie: Yes.David: I mean, if it’s not an emergency, emergency, then you can always ask for a few minutes. You can try to speak with your partner depending on her level of awareness, and consciousness, and interest in the topic, and your doula as well, or even phone a friend. But you usually have time.Sometimes I find that those circumstances relax a little bit when you create some time around them to really sit with it and check-in with your partner. “I know our birth preferences. We wanted to do A. They are really recommending B. What should we, can we wait a few minutes? Do we need to decide now?” Because things can change pretty quickly in a birth and sometimes waiting, things sort of tend to clarify both whether it’s the circumstances shift, or the answer that you are working with shifts, or your agreement around the answer shifts.So I would say, look for more time to let things settle or simmer a little bit more before you make a decision. If you don’t need to make it right that second, then look for some time. That will usually help the consensus clarify where you’re not feeling like you’re being pushed into making a decision because nobody likes that sense of being rushed into a decision especially if it doesn’t need to be made right that second.Julie: Yeah.Meagan: Love it. Love it, love it, love it. Time. Okay.Julie: Absolutely. Great advice.Meagan: All right, Julie. You are on the next question.Julie: All right. These last two made me chuckle. Okay.How do you convince your husband to read this book and be a better support?Meagan: Yeah.David: You know, that’s a great question. I joke sometimes that-- this material, I started offering in a workshop format, an in-person workshop.Julie: That’s cool.David: The challenge was that the guys who most needed the workshop were the ones that were actually the most oblivious to the fact that they needed the workshop.Julie: Yeah.David: So well, I think there are a couple things I will mention. One, this book is not like many of the other books out there. Some of the books out there are 500 pages. They are very encyclopedic which is great for the guys that really want to get into those details of the changes mama is going through, the developmental trajectory of baby, but for guys who aren’t interested in that, it’s just all starts to sound like Charlie Brown’s teacher. It’s like, “Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah.” And they’re like, “God, what am I supposed to do? Where is the part where it says, ‘do this?’”Julie: Yeah.David: So that’s the book I wrote. These are some specific things you can do at various times in the pregnancy, and labor, and even the fourth trimester. All the dad tips. There are 28 of them in there, but each of them are very specific for that time period. Dad Tip #, randomly, #2 is knowing the baby’s age in weeks. The baby is not four months. You probably wouldn’t know it at five weeks, but they are 12 weeks, or 15 weeks, or 17 weeks. That is relevant early on, but that falls away once you are in labor and delivery. It doesn’t matter how many weeks you are at this point. So those are very specific things. That’s what the book is built on. It is built on these very specific dad tips as well as these big ideas that helps shape your understanding.I joked with you earlier that one of the early subtitles I was playing around was, “All the things I wish I did better the first time.”Julie: Yeah. I know. We could all write a book like that.David: Right. Right. But that’s kind of the goal is like, I want the guys out there to have a chance to read this and their list, which, there will be a list of things they wished they did better the first time, or even the second time, or third time. I want that list to be shorter than mine.So that’s where it is coming from. It’s not another, “You are doing it wrong” kind of book and it’s not super encyclopedic. It’s short. It’s sweet. It’s pretty much to the point. It’s written by, I am just a dude who has been through this journey. I talk a little bit. It’s straight talk. I have done a great job in not cursing on the podcast, but there are some curse words mixed in there, a little salt and pepper, because when us guys get joking around, sometimes our language flows a little bit more freely.That’s how the book is written. It’s not preachy. It’s not, again, like I mentioned, not a “You are doing it wrong” book. It’s like, “Hey man. Yeah. This is challenging. It’s tough and sometimes it’s really hard.” One of the early big ideas is what I call the “Dude Zone to Dad Zone and Avoiding the Dud Zones”.Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say I saw that in there. “Avoiding the Dud Zones”. Yes.David: Yeah. The two dud zones I talk about-- I talk about the journey you are on. I tell the guys, “You don’t know it, but right now you’re on this journey from the dude zone to the dad zone. The dude zone is when you’re hanging out. You have your relationship. You have your job and all these other hobbies and cool things that are priorities for you, and now that you are going to be, you are a dad, but you’re going to be a dad when the baby gets here, as these expectant fathers are thinking, but you need to move into that dad zone,” which is shifting some things around, looking at things a little bit differently, re-prioritizing a couple things and during that pregnancy journey, things are really tricky for us guys because we know we are supposed to be helpful and supportive. We don’t know what that means and we bump into doing it wrong a lot.We are guessing. We are sort of like, “Well, I don’t know.” We are trying to figure it out, and so the two dud zones I talk about are Wimpy Town on the left and Jerkville on the right. Wimpy Town are the guys that just gave up on trying to figure it out and they basically say something to the effect of, “Just tell me what to do and I will do that.” They are defeated. They have given up on trying to figure out because they’re just tired. They are just frustrated with guessing wrong but that’s not really a good place to be. No expectant mama wants to have to tell her partner what to do, and when to do it, and all of that kind of stuff. That’s not a good teammate or good teamwork there.And on the other side is Jerkville. Those are the guys that occasionally will be like, “You know what? I don’t know what to do. I’m guessing. You do it. I saw a zebra pop out a baby last night on a nature show and the zebra was running around five minutes later. I don’t quite understand what’s going on here.” They get a little testy and defiant. That journey to the dad zone, you can bump into those dud zones a lot.There were many times I felt like I had one foot in Wimpy Town and one foot in Jerkville and I was like, “I don’t know what to do. I really want to be great and to be an awesome partner, but last night this worked and then tonight, the same thing is the worst idea ever. I am trying to remain connected but it is just really tricky.” So that’s where I am coming from. A lot of what I am trying to offer here is specific tips to help these guys make that journey from the dude zone to the dad zone with fewer slips into those dud zones. So that’s another reason I would say, give it a shot out there.Julie: Love it.Meagan: That’s awesome.Julie: That’s great. Yeah. I am going to add in a little question before Meagan asks the last one and we wrap it up. What about the dads who are less assertive? I know for some dads, it’s harder for them to stand up for their partner in the birth room. It’s harder for them to tell the doctor that they want to do something different even if they agree that they should do something different. Everybody’s personalities are different, but what advice would you give for those dads who are less confrontational but who want to be a solid, strong support for their wife?David: That’s a really good question.Meagan: Yeah. Would time still be the suggestion or do you feel like there is a different approach for those guys?David: I think time is always a great first place to start because then you have a chance to marinate a little bit and think about what the question is that is being asked of you or the suggestion. You have a chance to speak it over, talk it over a little bit with you. Ideally again, this gets back to that doula and having a great doula as your wingman. This is a great resource for us guys to discuss some of these things and also to check in with our partner and see how they’re feeling. Sometimes, something that is very clear in the birth plan or the birth preferences, as things progress, your partner may change her mind also and you don’t want to be adamantly holding the ground against something that your partner has now shifted her opinion on too.So that’s where having those conversations-- but it’s tricky. I am not an OB. I am not a midwife. I am not an auto mechanic. I am not going to argue against these people too strongly when they are specifically trained to do these things and I am not. So it’s really hard because most of us guys who aren’t birth professionals don’t really feel like we have too strong of a leg to stand on when push comes to shove.Julie: Yeah.David: We want our partners to be safe. We want our babies to be safe and that’s what the experts are there for ideally. That’s what their focus is too. So I still think time is your best first resource to ask for, and then to just confer with your partner and confer with other people on your birth team. “What would you do if this was your partner? What would you do if this was your baby?” could be some good questions to ask back or “What are some other options?” But at the end of the day, sometimes you have to make a decision and you just have to make the best one you can at the time with what information you have.Julie: Yeah. Totally. Yeah, I guess that was kind of a bad question. It had already been answered, but I think maybe you gave a different perspective from it and we learn by repetition, right? All right, Meagan, you are up. Last question.Meagan: Yeah. So one of the questions is: Are men actually reading your book? And I can almost guarantee that the answer is, “Yes”. But yeah, do you feel like you have had a good turnout from your book?David: Yeah. So far, it’s been pretty exciting. The book just came out in the fall of last year and one of the funny things about this is, assuming that they purchased a book somewhat early in the pregnancy, they are just now getting into the actual experience of having labor and delivery, and that fourth trimester. The sales have really been taking off recently which is great, but I have been starting to get some feedback from some of the guys out there and from some of the mamas too. I’ve gotten a couple thank you emails recently.Meagan: Awesome.David: I have gotten a couple more that said, “I probably should have taken you more seriously earlier in the journey.”Julie: Aw snap.Meagan: That’s awesome feedback though. You are like, “Yeah, okay. I am writing something really good here.” Yeah.Julie: You’re like, “Heck yeah. I’m so legit.”David: I got one. It was like, “It’s 3:00 a.m. I am working at one of your Dad Tips. My baby was crying. They are finally asleep in my arm and I am typing this on my phone with one hand, but thank you so much for this tip. This was great, some of the suggestions. I have looked back at the book also in some of the earlier chapters and I was thinking, ‘Yep. Should have done that. Yep. That would have been better.’”So ultimately, at the end of the day, it’s the guys out there who have had a chance to go through the pregnancy journey and now their buddies are going through their own pregnancy journey and their friends are asking them, “Hey, what kind of tips or advice do you have for me?” A couple of guys have said, “My first step is going to be to read this book and I am going to give them my copy.” And I am like, “That’s great. Pass it on.” Let the information get out there and make these birth experiences for all parties-- mama, dad, and baby too. Anything any of us can do to make that a little bit smoother and easier is great.So yes. Thankfully, they are reading it out there. Some of the mamas too. I got one email from a mama recently who, she had glanced through the book in preparation whether she should recommend it to her husband or not and she said she learned a lot about how he was looking at the pregnancy that she was able to be more, I don’t wanna say compassionate, but--Meagan: Understanding.David: Understanding, yeah. Like, “This is hard for him too. He is not only over there or not connecting with me, but he has got his own journey and a lot of this is new.” You can’t hold somebody accountable for something they haven’t been trained to do or informed about. So she was able to be a lot more understanding and workable in connecting with him and his journey too which I thought was awesome. I thought, “That was unexpected but great.” Teamwork makes the dream work.Meagan: Seriously though. That’s what I’m saying though. So many people are focused on what mom is doing. Mom is carrying baby. Mom is growing. Mom is doing this. Her boobs are getting big. You know, all these things, but it’s not like, you know what? Dad is struggling seeing her in pain. Dad is struggling seeing her not sleep very well. Dad is struggling with the fact that soon there’s going to be a child to take care of. You know? There is so much. And so I love that, that she was like, “I was able to understand his point of view too.” That is really cool. That is really, really cool.David: Yeah, that was neat. I really liked that one because, at the end of the day, the parenting partnership is what’s really going to be coming into play here, and whatever we can do to strengthen those bonds coming from both the mom’s side and the dad‘s side, that just makes that family unit so much stronger to work with those fourth trimester challenges, of which there can be many.Julie: Yeah.Meagan: Yes.David: So build those bonds now.Meagan: Well, and I just want to touch back on what you said, there is so much in your book that talks about things before baby even comes. And so Father’s Day is in June? When does this air?Julie: This is airing on June 2. When is Father’s Day?David: Awesome.Meagan: Okay, see? Father’s Day is not June 2. It is after. This is a great Father’s Day present. So I am just going to quickly go over a couple of the chapter titles. “The Dad Instinct” which, in my opinion, is awesome that you are calling it that. It seriously made me so happy when I saw that because we always talk about mama’s instinct, mom instinct knows best. Guess what? Dad’s instinct knows best too. So “Dad’s Instinct”, “We Are Pregnant: Through the First Trimester”, “The Second Trimester: Setting the Table”, “Third Trimester: Giddyup Cowboy”. Oh yeah. That’s when all of the complaining happens. “Labor and Delivery: The Time is Now”. “Welcome to Fatherhood: The Fourth Trimester”.And then he’s got tips and gift tracker spreadsheets, oh my gosh, go-bag essentials, birth plan topics, big ideas. I mean, there is so much in this amazing book. So ladies, grab this book for your husband. Read it together. Read it together.Julie: thevbaclink.com/wtfMeagan: WTF, yes.Julie: Alive and active. I just tested it on my browser. It is on Amazon, both paperback and audio versions.Meagan: Which is awesome. Are you the person reading it?David: The Kindle is available, but the audio version is not yet available.Julie: Oh sorry. I saw Kindle. Yeah.David: That’s okay.Julie: No, sorry.David: Yeah, Kindle is there. I did do the audio and I am waiting for that to get a little bit more polished up with some of my coughing and whatnot taken out, but that will be available soon too. So we are almost there.Julie: We can relate.Meagan: Awesome.Julie: Yay.Meagan: Okay ladies, Father’s Day is coming up. Definitely go grab this.Julie: Perfect. All right. Was there anything else you wanted to add before we cut you loose?David: No, this was great. I really enjoyed coming on here chatting with you ladies. Everything around birth is something I am super passionate about and like I said, anything out there that is helping people have a little bit easier, smoother journey is fantastic. So thanks again for having me on. I really appreciate it.Meagan: Thank you for joining us.Julie: Yeah, absolutely. It was fun having you on. All right, ladies, we are going to drop the link to his book in our bio, so go ahead and click on it there.Meagan: Do you have social media, David?David: I have a Facebook page that is pretty not active. I have been getting a lot of requests to get on Instagram and do some fun live videos, but I am a little bit behind the curve on that. So hopefully I can get that soon. But the website has tons of great resources on there. It’s just www.welcometofatherhood.com.Julie: Perfect.David: Like you mentioned, the birth plan, the gift tracker spreadsheet, and all kinds of cool stuff. So you can always reach me through there too and send me emails. I love emails. I love questions and comments so please send them on in.Meagan: Awesome.Julie: Perfect.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands