Moana's VBAC + VBAC with an Epidural

Moana’s first birth left her feeling traumatized, confused, and like a failure. With her next pregnancy, she was determined to find redemption. She became educated on all of the risks and benefits surrounding VBAC, hired a highly supportive birth team, and affirmed to herself that she could do this.Thanks to her preparation, Moana was able to adapt and utilize the birth tools she needed to achieve the beautiful VBAC she desired. We talk about how to build your own “birth toolbox” and why it’s important to allow yourself to use those tools as you need them. And as always, we fully support you in whatever tools you choose to use to have your positive birth experience!Additional linksThe Swiss Army Knife of LaborThe VBAC Link Blog: Natural Birth versus EpiduralFind a VBAC DoulaHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Hello, hello everybody. It’s Meagan and Julie. We are back with you today for episode number two of our return and episode number 183. We have Moana today and we cannot wait to get into her story. A little funny thing— I’m totally going to admit what just happened. We went through everything, and we were getting into the story, and guess what? We forgot to push “Record”. So darn it!Julie: My bad.Meagan: We are restarting, but that’s okay. We are excited. We have Moana with you today. She is from Hawai’i and she is one amazing mama. You guys, she had a 72 hour labor. I’m just going to say that. How stinking amazing! She is a military wife. She is in the Reserves. They have two kiddos. They love being in the sun, and surfing, and living life up in Hawai’i. We can’t wait to hear her stories in just a second. Review of the Week Meagan: We’re going to hurry and turn over the time to Julie because as usual, we are going to have that Review of the Week. We really love your reviews and now that we’re kicking the podcast off again, we’re going to need some more. So feel free to drop us a review on Google or send us a review, whatever it may be. We would love, love, love to read your review on the podcast. Alright, Julie.Julie: Oh my gosh. I am such a nerd. I cannot believe it. I am going to have to put a sticky note in the middle of the computer again and be like, “Push ‘Record’!” so I don’t forget.Second of all, Meagan, you say Hawai’i like, “Ha-WHY. She’s from Ha-WHY.”Meagan: Ha-waii. I don’t say, “Hawai’i.”Julie: Oh, so funny.Meagan: I know. I don’t say it correctly. I don’t even know.Julie: It’s funny. Okay. Oh my gosh. I need to stop talking, so I’ll just read this review and then we can have Moana start her story again. Oh my gosh. So, so sorry. Alright.Okay, so this review is from hnp1213 on Apple Podcasts and she says “So thankful. As I prepare for my HBAC this coming September, this podcast has helped me heal so much from my previous C-section. I’ve laughed, I’ve cried, and I’ve celebrated with so many of their stories. Thank you for creating an uplifting and empowering podcast for those of us looking for our redemption birth.”No thank you, hnp1213, and thank you, Meagan and Moana, for being patient with me while we have to restart this over. Alright.Moana’s storyMeagan: Okay, Moana. We want to dive back into your story because it’s a great one.Moana: Alright. So my husband and I got married in 2016. I was 22 and he was 23. We waited about three years to have a baby and I didn’t realize I was pregnant for a while. I was just kind of feeling sick at work and this guy actually told me, “Hey, I think you’re pregnant.” I was like, “No, no. There’s no way.” So I went and took a test and sure enough, two lines came up right away. It was super dark and I was like, “Oh, wow. I must not be early.”So I scheduled an appointment with my provider and sure enough, I was eight weeks along already. That was pretty exciting. My husband actually wasn’t even home at the time. I had to video call him. He was in the Middle East. I was like, “Hey, are you ready to be a dad?” And he was like, “Yeah, I guess.” I’m like, “No, I mean right now.” I showed him my test and he was like, “What?” Yeah.Meagan: “No, I mean right now!” That is awesome. “No, I mean you’re gonna be a dad so let me rephrase that.”Moana: Right, yep.Meagan: I love it. That’s awesome.Moana: Yeah. So yeah. He was super excited. I was just chugging along, had to keep going to work and I was super sick– puking all of the time, day and night. I was like, “Oh, I guess I know the baby is okay because my hormones are strong.”Meagan: Yeah.Moana: Up until the first and second trimester. Finally in the third trimester, I had just started to feel better, but then I just started to feel big, so one traded off for the other.Meagan: Mhmm.Moana: Yep. I made it all the way to 40 weeks and my provider was like, “Hey, I want to do an induction today.” I was like, “No. I don’t think I want to do that,” and she was pretty pushy about it. I told her, “Hey, the baby is fine and it’s just an estimated due date, you know? Maybe they didn’t even get it right.” She wasn’t too happy about that, so she said she was going to schedule an induction for 41 weeks. I told her, “Okay, but I am probably not going to go to the hospital and do it that day either.” So 41 weeks came and yeah. I told her, “No. I really don’t want to induce,” and she wasn’t too happy about it, but I just went home anyway. About three days later, I finally went into labor.I went to work that day. I just had contractions on and off. I tried to walk around a lot. I went home that night and they started getting stronger, but then they stayed about five minutes apart for a few hours. So I called my doctor and told her, “Hey. My progression doesn’t feel normal. What do you think?” She told me to go into the hospital. We got there at about 11:00 p.m. and I was only a centimeter and a half dilated, but she said she didn’t want me to leave because I was so far along in my pregnancy, which I didn’t really understand because I know from most people that if you are not about 5-6 centimeters, they usually turn you away.So we just labored, my husband and I, together in the hospital and no one really helped us out, or gave us any tips, or anything. We had no idea what we were doing. We were just like, “Oh, you know, everyone has babies. It just happens. Whatever.” Meagan: That’s kind of how I approached my birth too. I was like, “Well, I don’t know. People have babies every day, so I’m just going to go have a baby, right?”Moana: Right. Exactly. So yeah. We just kind of walked around prayed. We tried to use the birth ball. It is a teaching hospital too, so they were like, “Oh, can students come in?” And I was like, “Sure, I guess. I don’t know if they just want to see me in pain or whatever.” And so I kept laboring until the next day. I only got to about 5 centimeters and my contractions had gotten a little bit closer together, but I was just really in a lot of pain and it was really getting hard for me to cope. I would come to find out later it was because he was turning from sunny-side up back over and apparently, that’s pretty painful– almost like transition type level of pain when you are going through that.But at the time, I had no idea. I was just like, “Oh man. This is getting crazy.” I got an epidural and then about an hour later, it failed. My baby’s heart rate was crashing every time I had a contraction– really, really low and then it would come back up, but they were getting really worried. They called my doctor on the phone and she was like, “Okay. I am going to come in. We are going to do a C-section.” I was like, “No, no. I don’t want that if I don’t need it.” I really didn’t understand what was going on. They didn’t really explain if it was really dangerous for the baby or for me or anything like that. About thirty minutes to an hour went by and then his heart rate just crashed completely, so they just ripped us out of the room. They rushed us to the OR. I had no idea what was going on. I was looking at my husband who was just kind of standing there because they didn’t tell him to come or anything. They were just moving super fast. I think from the time his heart crashed to them getting him out was about 12 minutes.It was just so shocking. I could feel the hands inside of me. I remember I kept asking, “Is my baby okay? Is my baby okay?” and they wouldn’t answer me. I was crying and it was just this huge mess. I was just in so much shock. Thankfully, I heard him cry when they took him out and they had let my husband come in. I remember looking at him and looking at the baby. I was happy in my heart, but outwardly, I was in so much pain, and shock, and all of this stuff, that all I could do was just kind of moan and cry, and then I ended up passing out for a little bit.My husband got to help cut the rest of his cord off since they had to cut it right there at the table. I woke up a few hours later and I was just so upset that I didn’t get to hold my baby right away, and feed him, and do all of the stuff. I was so out of it still that I couldn’t really speak for a while, but I was able to hold him. So they handed him to me and I didn’t actually know he was a boy. We waited to find out, so that was a nice surprise after all this trauma went down.Julie: Oh, how fun.Moana: Yeah. And he was really good. He nursed right away and our postpartum was really great. I couldn’t have asked for a better baby. He was super calm and he nursed really well. We were just so happy. He was finally here.My doctor, though, was telling me, “Oh, do you guys want to leave today? You are taking a room for other patients,” but when we had walked around the wing, there were plenty of other open rooms. I don’t know why she was really pushy to get me out of the hospital, but I told her, I was like, “Oh, no. I don’t feel all that ready. I am still in a lot of pain. I can barely walk.” She was like, “Well, why don’t you just take the narcotics?” I told her, “No. I don’t want to do that. I will take Tylenol and Motrin, but I really don’t want to take anything stronger because of the way I reacted to the anesthesia.” So I told her, I was like, “Hey, just give us another day.” And so actually, the baby‘s pediatrician wrote up something on his chart so that we had a reason to stay one more day. But yeah, my doctor was fairly pushy and she made us feel bad. She was like, “Are you scared to go home or something like that?” That made my husband pretty mad too.Julie: Interesting.Moana: We were like, “No. I’m just not physically recovered enough yet,” because it was pretty violent when they had to pull him out. He had already descended a bit, so they actually had to pull him back out first and then get him up and out. So yeah. But anyway, so that was our first birth. Like I said, thankfully, postpartum was really great, but I knew I never, ever wanted to have a C-section again after that. So I was like, “Okay. I am going to get informed this time. I am going to read all of this stuff.” I found your guys’ podcast and it was really awesome listening to everyone’s birth stories, and just really getting educated on your options, and body, and all this stuff. I actually hired a midwife to go over my chart with me because I needed closure on my first birth because I really still didn’t understand what happened and why I had a C-section, so she went over everything with me. She actually told me, “Hey. You had a placental abruption.” My doctor never even talked to me about that or said that that had happened. I always thought I did something wrong and that was why it happened. But she said, “Oh, no. You can’t really prevent these or predict it and you were hemorrhaging, so the crash C-section had to happen.” So that gave me a lot of closure on that and she said, “You know, you are a really good candidate for a VBAC.”That really made me super excited. I just was like, “Okay. I want to do this.” I ended up getting pregnant again at 14 months postpartum which was great because I knew right away. I was so excited, like, “Okay. I am going to really get prepared for my VBAC this time.” I was sick again for the first two trimesters, but then in the third trimester, I felt really good and I was working out all the time. I hired a doula from Best Birth Hawaii and she was really great. She just gave me so much comfort and extra knowledge, and it was just so nice to feel like I had someone on my side who could speak up for me. I also had changed providers at this time too and he had done hundreds of VBACs before, so I just went into this birth super confident. I just knew, “Hey, I am going to do this and I know I can do it.”I went into labor at 39 weeks and 3 days and I was super excited for that too because I was like, “Man, I really don’t want to go past 40 weeks. I hope this baby can come early.” So yeah. It was a Wednesday and I started early labor. It was kind of slow at first, so I just tried to take the time to relax and maybe get a nap in. It really became hard to sleep that night though, and so I just kept trying to do what I could– walking around, kept moving and resting on Thursday. Then Friday, my doula finally came to the house and she helped me through a lot of active labor. At about 3:00 p.m. that Friday, we were like, “Okay. I think it’s time to go to the hospital.” So we were super excited. My husband and I made it to the hospital. We labored some more, but eventually, I was in so much pain and I hadn’t slept, so I just needed to get some rest. I said, “Okay. Let’s try an epidural.” I got it and then it was really weird. I felt a click in my back and I got really scared that they did something wrong because my leg twitched too and it didn’t really work. It took the edge off, but I could still move. They were like, “Oh, what happened?” I was like, “Oh, I am not really sure,” but I finally got a nap in. I kept moving around and I was like, “Oh, I think it failed,” and then all the pain came back. I labored a few more hours like that and then we tried a second one. Now I was about 8 centimeters dilated. That one only worked for about an hour and it failed too. We were pressing the button and I’m like, “I don’t know why it’s not working.”Julie: Oh my gosh.Moana: Yeah. So that was pretty crazy. I was really confused and I was so tired. I was like, “Man, I am so jealous of women who have two-hour labors or even eight-hour labors,” You know? I was like, “Oh.” My doula was like, “Don’t think about that.” And I’m like, “Okay. I guess I am getting the natural delivery that I wanted,” because, in my heart, I was like, “Man. I just want to be able to do it without interventions and without pain relief,” so I guess that ended up happening in the end. So I started having them help me move around a little bit, lay on my side with the peanut ball, and then I got the squat bar, and we were just doing all the things that we could with the limitation from having the epidural even though it wasn’t working anymore. By the time it came to push, I was like, “Man, I am in so much pain. I am just going to get this baby out.” In less than seven minutes of pushing, he came out. Again, we didn’t know it was a boy, actually. So that was another nice surprise.I pushed, pushed, and pushed as hard as I could, and then I got him out. I just felt so much relief and excitement. I was bawling and I cried so hard. My husband was like, “It’s a boy! It’s a boy!” I reached down to grab him up and he made a few little cries and nursed right away, and we had the skin-to-skin contact. It was just so redeeming and beautiful. Oh, I just want to cry thinking about it. But yeah. I was just so amazed that I was able to do it and now I know that my body can do it. And yeah. I couldn’t believe that it actually happened. And so now, I’m about 11 months postpartum and still breastfeeding. Actually, my first baby never stopped breastfeeding, so I’m trying to wean him right now because he’s almost three. I plan to wean the second one by no later than two years old. But we are hoping to have more kids so I’m just excited to be able to hopefully have another VBAC and just continue our journey, and keep being informed, and telling other people too like my friends who are having babies now and stuff like, “You can do it. You don’t have to be afraid of anything.” There’s so much information out there. I think even the medical world is changing too. VBACs are becoming more okay. They’re not turning away from it. More people are saying now, “Hey. This is good. It’s less risk for a mom in most cases.” So that’s just our crazy, traumatic story followed by a long, long labor and thankfully, we ended with a successful VBAC. Julie: Yeah. I love that. Oh my gosh. Such a great story. I love how patient you were in not finding out the gender of your babies! Oh my gosh. Like, I tried. I tried. Or I guess I didn’t really try at all. I am a sucker and I’m impatient. And so I’m not very good at waiting to know. I wanted to wait for my last, but I could not hold out. I didn’t even make it to 20 weeks before I had to run and make it to my gender scan. Let’s be honest. But I think that is so, so fun.To Epidural or Not to Epidural?I want to talk a little bit about epidurals and why I think sometimes it’s really easy for people to think– especially when you’re going in and planning for a VBAC, and you want to do everything you can in order to set yourself up for success, and everybody’s telling you, “Oh my gosh. Hire a doula. Have an unmedicated birth. Make sure you don’t go to the hospital until you’re pushing. Make sure you don’t get induced. Make sure you don’t do this. Don’t do that. Don’t do this. Don’t do that. And this.” Right?There are so many things telling you what not to do. It’s really important to remember that nothing is inherently good or inherently bad. All interventions have an appropriate time and place and even having no interventions can turn out to not be a good thing. And so I want to talk a little bit about epidurals. I think, oh my gosh. I don’t even know how long ago, but it was a while ago in our Facebook group. I did a video or a Facebook Live in our Facebook group about– I called it, “The Swiss Army Knife of Birth.” Maybe you can go to our Facebook group. It’s called The VBAC Link Community and you could do a search for it. I think it’s maybe just referred to as “The Swiss Army Knife of Birth” or something like that. “Coping Tools for Labor”, I’m not sure exactly. Maybe I’ll link it in the show notes. I’m probably going to have to link it in the show notes as I’ve been talking about it. But it talks about having a little tool kit of just a bunch of different random things that you might need to have available for you when you’re in labor. An epidural might be one of the things you want to have available for you in your toolkit for coping with the discomforts of labor and it’s neither inherently good nor inherently bad. Being able to have something available for you to make a decision like the acronym, “B.R.A.I.N.”-- so using the Benefits, the Risks, Alternatives, your Intuition, and what happens if you do Nothing– to go through at the time to make a decision.Meagan: Hey, can you help me clean up your room? Sorry, guys. Sorry. Sorry.Julie: Meagan! You are not on mute! Meagan: I’m sorry! No, I’m not. I didn’t know. I was like, “Hey. Clean up your room!” I’m even whispering. Okay, sorry. Julie: Mute yourself, girl. Meagan: I’m muted. Well, now I am. Julie: No, you’re not. Now you are. Okay. Oh my gosh, what was I saying? So epidural has risks and benefits like every other coping tool in labor. Benefits of an epidural– I’m sure Meagan has seen the same as me. Sometimes, we see epidurals relax mom enough to where she progresses, and is able to dilate further, and push her baby out relatively quickly. Sometimes, not quickly. Sometimes, it takes a little while longer.Meagan: Yeah. Julie: But it’s exactly what the laboring person needs in order for the body to progress further because let’s be honest. If you’ve been laboring for a really long time, your body’s completely exhausted. It’s not going to labor effectively. Meagan: Well, and something else, too, I was going to mention, Julie. Sorry to cut you off–Julie: Yeah. No, go ahead. Megan: Not only physically, but sometimes when we get an epidural, it’s also so our mind can emotionally be present because sometimes when we’re laboring, especially for a long time, it’s like, “I don’t know how much longer I can do this. If this is hard now, is it going to get harder?” Our minds keep going to the future and things like that. It’s so great to get that epidural sometimes and just let your mind shut off and be present, and then your body can just do its job. Julie: Yeah, that’s a really good point. That's a very good point. I’ve seen that before as well myself. We’ve also seen epidurals really limit how much a parent is able to move while they’re in labor and also how much, sometimes, hospital staff is willing to be able to let the parent move. Sometimes, it can change the entire mood of the room at that point. Also, I’ve seen it affect the mind negatively. If a parent is really, really set on having an unmedicated birth without an epidural, it can give them the feeling of, “Oh no. I gave up. I didn’t achieve this goal that I had in mind.” And so being able to go into birth instead of with a specific set of things you want to accomplish, but having it be a little more fluid and flexible, and being willing to adjust your goals as necessary, I think, is really important as well. One little thing that might not go to your expectations has the possibility to shift your entire mindset and mood. It is so important to be able to keep your hormones balanced and everything to go well as well. So I don't know. Meagan, what would you add about epidurals? Meagan: I feel like there’s so much shame in epidural and also like, “Oh, if I get an epidural, I’m giving up. I’m failing.” There’s just so much and I don’t like it. I don’t like it at all. I think that epidurals have a bad rap and yes, are there some serious pros to going unmedicated? Yeah, there are. There are some great pros. But there are also some serious pros of having an epidural, and enjoying the experience, and getting the rest, and also letting your body progress the way it may not be able to at that moment unmedicated. So I hope that if you are preparing for a VBAC or for birth in general, try not to put so much negative–Julie: PressureMeagan: Negative pressure, yeah, when it comes to an epidural because it is okay. It is okay to have an epidural. Like we said, it can be the magic tool in your toolbox. We have lots of tools in our toolbox. Whether we use them or not, they’re there and it’s okay to use them.There’s never been a time where I’ve tried to use a screwdriver when I need an Allen wrench on my bike, right? I need to raise my seat up and I need an Allen wrench. I don’t need a screwdriver. There are different tools for different situations and for birth, an epidural is a great tool that is in the toolbox and it’s okay to use it. Julie: Absolutely. Absolutely, yep. And of course, we have a blog all about natural birth and epidural, and comparing both of those things. Like Moana said, her epidural had a hard time getting it to work and that is one of the risks that can come along with an epidural. Sometimes, it doesn’t work all the way or right off the bat. You might need to have an anesthesiologist come and make some adjustments, so you might need to be careful with that. But let me tell you, when I first started out as a doula, I was kind of like, really gungho, 100%, unmedicated birth all the way, that’s the only way to do this, but man, life has a way of teaching you lessons. And every once in a while, I’ll have a client look at me in the eyes and look at me and be like, “I think I need an epidural. I feel, like–” Oh my gosh. They almost feel like they need permission to get one. Does that make sense? Meagan, do you know what I’m talking about?Meagan: Totally. Totally. Yes, it does. They ask. Julie: Like, letting me down if they get one?Meagan: Yeah. There was actually a birth that I was at and the epidural came into my mind. It kind of went from–Julie: But you don’t also want to be the first one to bring it up either, right?Meagan: I know, but I did. I did. It was suffering. It went to suffering. She was suffering and one of the biggest things she said when we talked about her goals was to have a positive experience. And when you are past that point, you’re not going to have a positive experience. You’re just not. Julie: Yeah. It could lead to more birth trauma and that could introduce that. Meagan: Totally. Totally. So I just said, “Hey. Why don’t we talk about some options right now?” And we went over it and I did say epidural. She said, “I’ve been wanting someone to say that for the last four hours.” She said, “I didn’t feel I could. I didn’t feel I could.” And the fact that you just said that makes me think, “Okay. It’s okay.” And I’m like, “No. It’s totally okay.” You know? It’s totally okay, but she didn’t feel that that was okay because her goal was to not. Julie: Mhmm. Meagan: It was to not, but it’s okay. Julie: It’s okay to change plans. Meagan: It’s okay to change plans. It’s okay to adapt. Julie: And it’s okay to just go into your birth wanting an epidural from the start. It is okay to do that too. Meagan: Yes. Yeah. So, I love Moana’s story. I can’t say enough about, “Hey. It’s okay. Don't let it get you down if you get an epidural and you didn't want one.”Julie: But it’s also okay to want a completely unmedicated birth and it’s also okay to have one. I mean, both Meagan and I have had unmedicated VBACs, but we’ve also seen the beauty in all types of birth stories no matter how they unfold and no matter what the outcome is. We support you in however you want to birth. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Moana. Thank you so much. Moana: Yeah. Thank you, guys. I appreciate the opportunity to tell my story. Thanks for all you guys do. I mean, if I didn’t find this podcast, I don’t know if I would have been as confident going in. And like you guys said, knowing that it’s okay to want an epidural because I really did feel like that during my first birth. Even my husband kind of made me feel guilty about it and some of our family, and I really felt like I failed at that point. And just knowing that it was okay going into my second birth, I’m like, “Okay. If it gets to that point, I’m not going to feel bad about that. I’m just going to do it.” That just took one element of stress away from the birthing process. Meagan. Yeah. Yeah. Moana’s VBAC Prep TipJulie: Yeah. I love that. Moana, you know we can’t let you leave without us asking you one question. What is your best tip for somebody as they are preparing to birth after a Cesarean?Moana: I would say definitely get educated and hire a doula if you can because she just instilled so much confidence in me. Even though maybe I didn’t need her there or maybe I did, just emotionally for me, it was so necessary. I told her right afterward when I had my second one that, “I could not have done this without you. You just gave me something that I would have never been able to do myself.” Especially because of my trauma from my first birth, even though I had coped with it, I still just didn’t have the confidence that I had when she was there with me. Julie: I love that. Get educated and hire a doula, and wouldn’t you know? We have opportunities to do both on our website, thevbaclink.com. We have a VBAC preparation course that is designed to help you gain the full confidence that you need in order to have all of the tools in your toolkit on your birthing day. We also have a directory of VBAC doulas that we have educated on all of the things that you never nuded?Meagan: –that you’d never know you’d need.Julie: We have a directory of VBAC doulas fully trained and educated to perfectly support you on your birthing day. You can find our VBAC doulas at thevbaclink.com/findadoula. Everything you need you can find right on our website, thevbaclink.com. We’ll see you there. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience on thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands