Daniela's VBAC + Doulas and Advocacy

“When she saw that I couldn’t speak, she spoke up for me.”Though her first birth felt wildly out of control, Daniela learned her first lessons in how to speak up in the birth space by pushing for pain relief during her Cesarean even when she wasn’t initially believed. During her VBAC preparation, Daniela’s confidence just kept growing. Yet though she was confident, she knew she couldn’t only rely on herself. So with her husband and a trusted doula by her side, Daniela was able to keep her focus on laboring and achieve the VBAC she envisioned.Advocating for yourself in the birth space can feel scary, but Meagan and Julie discuss how to help you feel strong enough in your desires and courageous enough to make sure they are honored during your VBAC.Additional linksBenefits of a Doula for Pregnancy, Birth, & BeyondVBAC Friendly Doctors: How to Find a Truly Supportive ProviderHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFind a VBAC DoulaFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Julie and Meagan with you today. We are so excited. Oh my gosh, we are just getting back into the groove of podcast recording and I’m just over here with a big ol’ smile on my face. I’m sure Meagan is the same. We just shut off our videos. We record on Zoom. So we just shut off our videos and it is always fun to get to see each other because Meagan and I hardly ever see each other anymore. It’s really funny. But it’s fun to see our guest, and just chit-chat a little bit first, and get back into it. But we have a really, really exciting guest for you today. It is Daniela and she’s going to share her story about her VBAC. We’re going to talk about advocating for your rights during childbirth because that’s a really hard thing to do and sometimes you don’t exactly know how to do it. So Daniela’s story is going to go into that a little bit, and then we’re going to talk a little bit more at the end. But before we get started, Meagan has a Review of the Week for us. Review of the WeekMeagan: Yes, I do. This is from Jen7363728. Julie: “867-5309”. Okay sorry, go on. Meagan: The title is, “So inspiring.” She says, “Thank you for providing this important resource to women. I am preparing for my VBAC coming any day now (40 weeks, 5 days today). Your podcast has been so informative and inspirational! Your work is truly making a difference. Thank you for empowering me and so many others to follow this journey.”And I love that. I am excited to know if she had her VBAC or how her birth went. That was back in June, you guys. June of 2021? 2021. No, 2020. I bet this was in 2020. So that was a long time ago. We love our reviews. If we ever read your review on the podcast, we’d love to know the follow-up. Let us know how things went and of course, we’re always looking for new and fun reviews. So if you have a second, drop us a review. You can do it on Apple Podcasts. You can do it on Google, pretty much wherever.Julie: Facebook. Meagan: Facebook. Wherever we are, you can leave us a review. We love them. They mean the world to us and we love reading them on the podcast. So thank you so much to Jen– all the numbers– 7363728.Daniela’s StoryJulie: I love it. Oh my gosh, this is so exciting. Okay. We are here today with Daniela. She is a wife, a mama of two boys, and she is currently expecting baby number three in the fall of 2022. So we’re so excited for her and her upcoming birth as well. But before we get talking too much or singing, because apparently singing is something I do now on the podcast, I don’t even know. The first episode, I don’t know, this is weird. Before I start being weird again, Daniela, welcome. We are so excited to have you and we would love for you to share your stories with us. Daniela: Thank you. It is an honor to be here. Every time I listened to the podcast, I was like, “Oh, one day I’m going to be on it and tell my story.” So this is a dream come true for me. Julie: Yay! Daniela: Yeah, so I got pregnant back in 2018 and it was the same year that I had a miscarriage, so my C-section was my rainbow baby. It was pretty, kind of like– mixed emotions. Julie: Yeah. Daniela: Anyway. So I thought I wanted this natural, unmedicated birth from the beginning. I went with the midwives because I thought they were going to be a huge part of my birth process in not wanting to have a medicated birth. So anyway, my whole pregnancy was normal, healthy, you know, no concerns or anything. So I thought, “Why not? The birth is going to be just as wonderful as the pregnancy was.” So it was about 39 weeks and my contractions started Saturday morning, like 3:00 a.m., but they were 10 minutes apart, 20 minutes apart. They were very random. So I was like, “Well I’m just going to keep resting and sleeping.” And then by noon, 1:00-2:00 p.m., they were getting more in a rhythm. So I started checking them and they were pretty consistent, but they were not very intense. It was the first time, so I didn’t know what to expect. I didn’t even know how the pain level was going to be. And I remembered in the classes that I took, they told me, “Just 4-1-1. Every 4 minutes, for 1 minute, every minute, for an hour.”Meagan: At least an hour, yeah. Daniela: So I said, “Okay.” So I timed it and they were pretty consistent, but they were not very intense. So I called the midwife and I said, “They are 4-1-1, but they are not very intense.” And she’s like, “Well, you can just come in.” So I said, “Okay.”And then they checked me, and I was at 4. They were like, “No, you still need to go home. You’re starting to labor more.” And I remember they told me, “When you need to punch someone or punch something and you start crying, that’s when you need to come in.” I said, “Okay.”So I called my mom and I said, “You know what? I think it’s time. The time is getting sooner, so why don’t you come over?” She came over, so it was my mom, my husband, and myself. I started laboring and stuff and by that time, I hadn’t eaten anything because I just didn’t want to eat anything. I wasn’t feeling like it. Anyway, and then by 7:00 p.m. or 8:00 p.m., they got really intense and I was punching the wall, and I was crying, and I remember I was fighting every single contraction. I would just fight it to not feel the pain. And my mom was a little bit stressed. So I don’t know if that got into my head, that ambiance of her not being calm and relaxed, that it got to me. And then she told my husband, “We need to go to the hospital. We need to go to the hospital right now. She’s crying and she’s punching the walls.” Anyway, so we got to the hospital. They checked me and I was 5. I did not want to get the epidural in the back of my mind, but I was in so much pain. I looked at my husband and I said, “I’m sorry, babe. I need to have an epidural.” And he looked at me and he was like, “Okay. If that’s what you want to do, that’s fine. But you said–,” And I said, “I know, but I’m so sorry.” I was in so much pain. He was supportive in that way, but he didn’t want to speak up, like, “You told me that you didn’t want an epidural.” Anyway, he was trying to be supportive. I think we got to the hospital around 11:00. by that time. They gave me the epidural right in my room after triage, and I progressed from 5-8 centimeters in three hours. It was really quick and I was like, “Okay, this is going well.” I think they gave me Pitocin. To be honest, I don’t remember. So I progressed really well in three hours and I was like, “Oh, this is going really well. I’m progressing well.” But from 8 centimeters to 9, it took forever, like, maybe ten hours. It took a long time.Meagan: Wow.Daniela: It took a long time.Meagan: Wow.Daniela: I was doing fine. The baby was doing fine, nothing to worry about like, “Oh, we need to go into a C-section.” But then it was Sunday afternoon by that time, so I was in the hospital for a really long time. No eating because you are not allowed, so I had nothing to eat. I was tired, all of that, and then by 2:00, they were like, “Okay. Even though you are not 10,” I was like 9 1/2, “We are going to start pushing.” I said, “Okay.”We started pushing, and pushing, and pushing, and pushing for four hours. For four hours, I pushed. By the time I was done pushing or before the four-hour mark, the heart rate was decreasing– the baby's heart rate. They were like, “Well, the baby is not tolerating the contractions well, so we might as well just do a C-section,” just to have that in the back of my mind.I think as soon as I heard that “C-section” word, I just shut down. Like, my brain shut down, my body shut down. I don’t know, just a completely different vibe that I felt. And then I remember when I was pushing, my husband was like, “Okay. You need to keep going. Come on, we don’t want to do a C-section. Come on. You can do it.” He was really trying to be supportive. I pushed and nothing. They told me that the heart rate was really low and they were like, “Okay. I am so sorry. We just have to do a C-section.” By the time they told me that, I was tired. I was so afraid. The whole ambiance just changed in seconds. There were three people in the room– my husband, my mom, and the midwife– and then in two seconds, there were 12 people in the room. You know, scattering, like, “You need to sign this paper,” and this, and this, and that, and I was like, “What just happened? What is happening right now?” So they let me sign the forms, and I have no idea what I signed. I was in out-of-it mode by that point. So I signed and I was sobbing. I was crying. I was so scared that something would happen to my baby, that something would happen to me, so I felt defeated. Like, I did my work. I thought I researched. I thought I prepared myself, but I guess not. So anyway, we went to the OR. I was there and my husband was there at the back of my head, and I just remember feeling every single little bone pulling out of my body. I remember there was a doctor right behind me and she said, “You are not supposed to feel pain. You are supposed to feel just pressure.” And I was like, “This does not feel like pressure.” I felt everything. And she was like, “Is it painful?” And I said, “Yes!” So I guess they gave me more pain medication and as soon as she did that, the pressure was still there, but the pain was gone. So thankfully, I spoke and I said something.Julie and Meagan: Yeah.Daniela: Because otherwise, I would have felt them stitching me. Oh my gosh. It was horrible.So the whole thing was 15 minutes that I was there. I was crying, and I was shaking, and I was in pain, and I was screaming for the whole 15 minutes. My husband told me this. So after that, the baby was born, and then they showed it to me. They showed him to me through the curtains. At that point, I was so defeated and I was so overwhelmed that I remember I did not want to take a look at my baby.Like, what just happened? I just had a baby and I felt horrible. You are supposed to take care of your baby and want to hold your baby. I did not want anything to do with the baby. Like, nothing. I did not want to take a look at him, nothing for like, 10 minutes. After they had given him to my husband, my husband carried him and showed him to me, and then by that time I was like, “Oh, I had a baby!”Meagan: Kind of a disconnect. There was a disconnect, yeah.Daniela: Yes. Very disconnected. And then after that, I started shaking. They told me that it was normal. They said, “If you start shaking, that’s normal,” but I was nonstop shaking and I was like, “This is not normal.” So I started shaking and they gave me more medicine, I guess, to stop shaking. I remember that they asked me in the room, they were like, “Do you want to hold your baby?” And I said, “No. I am afraid that I’m going to drop him,” because I was so shaky.Meagan: Shaking so bad, yeah.Daniela: I think it took about an hour and a half and after that, I was like, “Okay. I just had the baby. I stopped shaking. Okay. I can finally hold my baby.” So I didn’t get the golden hour that I was craving. So yeah. That was my traumatic experience with my C-section. The recovery was awful. We had to stay with my mom for about two months because back then, I was living in an apartment with stairs, so I couldn’t go up the stairs or down the stairs. So I stayed with my mom. You can just imagine how living with your mom after having a baby and a husband, it’s just like, “Okay. This is not what I planned.”Meagan: I cannot only personally imagine. I’ve done it. My mom lived with me, but yes. A lot of people would think that it’s super ideal because Mom is there to help and that’s nice, but it’s just not. You need your space.Daniela: Exactly.Meagan: You need your space. Yeah.Daniela: Exactly, especially after having a baby and a traumatic experience.Julie: Yeah.Daniela: So anyway, after that, I was determined that there was no way I was going to have another birth with the same experience. Like, no way. I was going to do everything in my power and everything that I could so I didn’t experience this again. I started researching birth after Cesarean and I learned the term “VBAC”. I had never heard of it. So I learned about it. I learned about the Facebook group and the podcast. I just started listening to stories, reading stories, and just getting information. I just pretty much saturated myself. That’s all I thought about. That’s all I talked about with friends and family. I guess they were pretty tired of me talking about it.And just the people– they think that just because you have a C-section, then you’re going to have a C-section with all of your births. I remember people looking at me like, “You are crazy.” Like, “Oh, you had a C-section, so you’re going to have another C-section?” And I was like, “No. I am going to have a VBAC.” And they were like, “What is that?” So you know, it gave me the chance to give knowledge to other people about VBAC and all of that, so I felt pretty powerful knowing something and telling people about it. So that was pretty cool. So anyway, and then after that, I took this pregnancy differently. I tried to eat healthier. I was more active. I was exercising, walking, just doing all of the movements, and bouncing on my ball. I did everything they told me to do to have a successful VBAC. I did the dates and the raspberry tea. Everything, I did. I hired a doula. I hired a doula at late 37 weeks or 36 weeks. I took so long because we couldn’t afford it and I really did talk to my husband. I said, “I really think we need this.” And he was like, “Okay.” We prayed about it and God showed us, “Okay. Yes. This is what it takes for you to have a VBAC, then just go for it.” So we felt at peace.So we hired a doula. Time went and I was almost 38 weeks. It was my baby shower and I woke up with contractions that day. It was early morning, but they were 10 minutes apart, 15 minutes apart. So I texted my doula and I said, “I don’t know if this is the real thing, but I am having contractions. They are very random,” and she was like, “Just take a shower. Relax and just let me know how you feel.” And I said, “Okay.”So I did that and I think that relaxed my body. They were farther apart, like 30 minutes apart, 40, and then 20, and 15, so very random. And then after that, my husband was like, “Are you going to your baby shower?” And I said, “Yes!” And he was like, “But you are in labor.” I’m like, “I might be. I might be not. Who knows?”So I went to my baby shower and I guess I just forgot about the contractions talking with the people and all that. This was during COVID, so we actually did a drive-through baby shower. I did not want to tell anyone but my sister and my sister-in-law. I did not want to tell my mom because of the past experience that I had with her that she just gets really stressed very quickly and she was not feeling good. We had thought that she might have had COVID, so I said, “I am not going to worry her with that either,” so I didn’t tell her. I went to my baby shower and by the middle of the baby shower, I was feeling the contractions very soon and I was like, “Okay. I think this is the real deal.” The baby shower ended around 7:00 p.m. and I went home. I needed to stop to breathe through my contractions and when my husband saw me, he was like, “Oh. Oh my gosh. I think we are having a baby.” I didn’t even pack. I didn’t even have the hospital bag ready. He didn’t even have the bag ready either. It was two weeks early. We never thought that he was going to come two weeks early.Julie: That is so funny. With my third baby, my second VBAC, I went to a baby shower for myself on her birthday as well and she was born at 37 weeks. It’s so funny. There are so many parts where I’m just laughing along because I am just right there with you.Daniela: So anyway, I said, “You and I just pack some things. Put some things in the bag.” So I got very, very, very intense with my breathing and I think that helped me through– the whole contractions, and how to breathe, and how to stay calm, and all of that. I was very focused on my breathing and I did not let anything distract me. Not even my toddler, my husband, my thoughts, anything. I just kept breathing. After an hour, I said, “I think you need to call my doula.” So my husband called my doula. I hadn’t even met my doula. The day after, on Sunday, we were supposed to meet directly meet in person. So I actually met my doula during my labor.Meagan: When you started labor.Julie: I had a birth like that.Meagan: I have done that too. I was at a birth one time where they called me and they were like, “We have been in labor for two days. Please come over.”Julie: Oh my gosh, I love it.Meagan: So I was meeting them in between contractions. Like, “Okay, so what do you do for a living? How long have you been together?”Julie: “What’s your birth plan?”Meagan: Yeah. “What would you like for this birth?” Yeah.Julie: Oh, okay. Okay, okay. Go on.Daniela: Yes. I mean, we talked on the phone about what was my birth plan and all that. But it’s just that we were going to practice breathing techniques and pain– none of that happened.Julie: I love it.Daniela: So anyway, she came over. She was listening on the phone and I was making those sounds and she was like, “Oh yeah. She’s in labor. Okay, just give me an hour and I will be right there.” So she came in an hour and I labored for another hour for a while in my home– dim lights, the toddler was asleep, I had my worship music on. It was just so different from my first birth. I was very calm and very focused on my breathing and she helped me through movement and stuff like that. And then at around 10:00, 10:30, my water broke. I said, “I think my water broke,” because I never experienced that and she was like, “Okay. Let me check.” So we checked and she was like, “Yep. That was your water. Okay, so how are you feeling? Do you want to go to the hospital now?” I was like, “I don’t know. Should I?” I had no idea what to do. I was like, “Maybe.” I said, “Can I just wait a little bit longer and see how I feel?” She was like, “Just letting you know, the contractions are going to get more intense and the hospital is about 30-35 minutes away.” I said, “Let me just do one more contraction.” She was like, “Okay. Let’s just do it.” But they were so back to back and I was like, “Oh no. I think I need to go to the hospital right now.” I told her, I said, “I have the urge to push.” She was like, “Oh my gosh.” So she pulled my husband and she was like, “Just letting you know, if you think that she is going to have the baby in the car, just pull over and call 9-1-1.” My husband was like, “Oh my gosh. No. Let’s just not do that.”Meagan: He’s like, “Uh, no. Let’s not do that at all. Someone else can drive. Someone else can drive.”Daniela: Yes. So we rushed to the hospital and we got there. They checked me and they were like, “Okay. You are an 8,” and I was like, “Okay. Yes. I can do this,” because I had learned that transition is the quickest– the most painful one, but the quickest one. I said, “Okay. If I am an 8, I know I can do this.” So yeah. They checked me and by that time they were asking me questions and in the second that I had to breathe, I answered them. I would not answer them when I was having a contraction. I was like, “I don’t care about them. I just care about my breathing and if something is going to throw me off, then I am not going to do it.”They turned me from triage to a room and they were like, “Okay. She is going quickly. We are going to have this baby really quickly. We got to the room and they were like, “Can we do this?” And I said, “No.” “Can we do an IV?” And I said, “No.” That was one of the things that I advocated for myself and I didn’t know before. I didn’t know that I could deny any intervention that they wanted to do.The funny part is when I walked in the room, there were the nurses and there was the doctor and they were like, “Oh, this is Dr. such-and-such.” It was the same doctor that did my C-section and I remembered his name clearly. I was like, “Oh my gosh.” So I thought, “Okay. He might want to push to have a C-section because he did it with me.” So I was like, “No. I am not going to go there with my thoughts. No. Let’s just keep focused on breathing.” He was like, “Okay. How are you doing?” I was trying not to breathe and I was like, “Oh, I am good. They were trying to put in the IV and I was like, “No. I don’t need to,” and they were like, “Can I check you?” And I said, “Hold on. I am breathing. I am having a contraction.” And then I was feeling the urge to push. I don’t know how, but I just knew. I just knew that I was ready to push. They were like, “Don’t push. I need to check you. I need to check you.” I was like, “Do you have to check inside of me?” I was yelling, “You don’t need to check me. I just need to have this baby right now,” but I did not say anything because I didn’t want to lose my strength in telling them what to do. I was like, “No.” So they were like, “Can I please check you?” And I said, “Okay.” I put the position of all fours. I didn’t lay on my back because I knew that would not go well. So I put myself in the bed on all fours and they were like, they weren’t sure, “Are you going to roll over?” And I said, “No. I’m going to keep it like that.” She was like, “Okay.” So she checked me and she was like, “Oh yeah. She is ready.” Inside of me, I was like, “Of course, I am ready. I knew that.”So anyway, I was still in that position and the nurse asked the doctor, she was like, “I think she wants to push in that position. Is that okay?” She was asking the doctor and I was like, “Yes. Of course, it’s okay.” I want to push however I want to push. This is my baby and this is my birth! And the doula was very helpful. She didn’t speak to the staff on my behalf, but when she saw that I couldn’t speak, she spoke up for me.Julie: Good for her.Daniela: She spoke with my husband and then my husband spoke for me, so she didn’t take my place, but she helped me through that. And the nurses asked, “What is her birth plan?” My husband was like, “No clue.” My doula had to dim lights and this, and that, and that, so all of that. So she was helpful in the end. Very helpful. So anyway, and then after that, I started pushing. I pushed for 30 minutes and he was out. When I felt the whole body out of my body, I switched right over to my back and they were like, “Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. You are going to crush the baby!” because I was so excited to hold my baby. So I leaned over and they were like, “Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. We need to unwrap him.” I said, “Okay.” They unwrapped him from the umbilical cord and they were like, “Okay. Now you can move over.” So I moved and went on my back. They just handed him to me right away and I just started sobbing, and crying, and I was just in awe. Like, “I cannot believe that I did that.” It was just an amazing feeling and I never thought that I was going to be able to do an unmedicated birth at all. So yeah. That’s my story.Julie: That’s really exciting. I love it. I love that everything went so quickly that you barely knew what to do. I love those parts of that. Sometimes, things are definitely a little more challenging that way, but sometimes it works out a little bit easier because there’s not a lot of time to try and interfere with the birth process if that makes sense.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, I love that too because they want to help you, but like you said, there’s no time to be like, “Well, we are going to do this. We are going to do this. We are going to do this.” Even like you said, the few things that they did want to do that you didn’t feel comfortable with, you were like, “No. I don’t want to. I don’t want that.” And that’s a hard thing to do in that situation. There’s a lot of people like, “Hey, we need this IV. We need this. We need this.” And it’s like, “Okay, okay, okay,” because you’re not in a state of mind that you just can be like, “Oh wait. Hold on. I don’t want that. I don’t want this.” A lot of times, people just go in and are like, “Okay. Yeah, whatever,” because they are so focused on laboring. You kept your focus on laboring and then also kept your focus on what was important to you. I applaud you for that because that’s really, really hard to do.Daniela: Thank you.Julie: Yeah. I think it’s so funny when you said that the staff asked what was in your birth plan and your husband was like, “I have no idea.”Meagan: “I don’t know.”Julie: And the doula was there to help guide you—Meagan: Yes.Julie: –and remind your husband maybe a little bit about what was needed because you certainly weren’t in a place to stand up for yourself and explain everything because labor is just really hard like that. Nobody is in a spot to really be able to do that, but your doula was. Your doula was able to do that for you and I really like how you said that when you weren’t able to communicate for yourself, she would communicate for you, or she would help your husband communicate for you, because that’s something that I really think is important as a doula as well. It’s something that I try to do. It’s hard, sometimes, to find the balancing act between really advocating in the birth room and helping the parents learn how to or remind them of what they want to advocate for, right? And so, I like that you mentioned that she was able to do that because sometimes it’s harder for husbands or other birth partners to be able to remember what you wanted in the moment, and sometimes, just a little nudge from the doula to be like, “Hey, by the way, she didn’t want to push on her back, so let’s just be ready because this provider looks like he might want to make her do that.” And then the husband is like, “Oh yeah. That’s right. I am ready. Let’s do this.” And so it just takes a little gentle nudge and reminder and that’s exactly what doulas are there to help you with as well.Daniela: Yes. That is for sure. I think she was a crucial part of my birth. With this baby that we are going to have in the fall, I told my husband, “Even though it is my third, it’s going to be my second VBAC. You don’t know what birth is going to be like.” You know? My second was very easy, but I don’t know how the third will be. So I said, “We are going to hire her again.” And he was like, “Okay,” because he knew the difference that she made.Meagan: Oh yeah. Yeah. That’s something that my husband said too. We had no doula for my first two C-sections and then we had the doula for my third and my husband was like, “Okay. We are totally done having kids, but I would never do that again without a doula because that was incredible.”Julie: Yeah.Meagan: It brought so much peace for him too.Julie: Yeah. Having someone that knows and is familiar with the birth space, and the birth process, and what is going on really is helpful especially when you already know what is going on in the birth process. You can’t doula yourself. We have been doulas– Meagan was a doula during her VBAC after two C-sections. I was a doula for my second two VBACs, but having somebody that is levelheaded that knows what is going on, that knows what is not an emergency, that everything is normal, and then if things do become a little more urgent, they can help guide you, and steer you, and help you know what options there are, and how to ask questions, and how to communicate with the staff, and all of those sorts of things. So yeah. Lots of great information there about doulas.We have lots of information available about doulas on our blog as well. We will drop some links to evidence for doulas that we have blogs about. There is actually statistical evidence that is documented showing that having a doula in your room present for you can– does, not can. It does reduce your chance of having a C-section by 39% which is huge deal. So don’t take my word for it, go check out our blog. We have links to all of the studies there cited for you so you can go and see them for yourself.Birth AdvocacyJulie: Well, let’s talk a little bit more about birth advocacy for a second and standing up for yourself. I think we kind of already touched on how having somebody like a doula for you that knows what you want, and understands the birth process, and is familiar with it is a really important piece of being able to advocate for yourself and stand up for having a birth that you want, but I really liked during your story, Daniela, how there were a couple of little parts that stuck out to me. Like, during your surgery when you were having your C-section, you kept bringing up that it hurt. I almost got a little bit frustrated when you said the nurse kept asking you, “Does it hurt or do you just feel pressure?” And you were like, “Yeah, it hurts.” Like, how many times did you have to tell them that? But by continuing to speak up for yourself and say that, they were able to resolve it, and get you some medication, and pain relief so that you could actually have that relief and have it resolved later on.It’s really hard to stand up for yourself, sometimes, in the birth space, especially during such an emotional event that is giving birth and being able to do that can be really intimidating for people. I think it is a really important thing and another thing that you can use to attest to the importance of having a birth team that you really trust because imagine how much harder it is with a provider who you don’t like, or you don’t trust, or you don’t believe is going to even believe you. Standing up and advocating for yourself in an environment that is not supportive and that you don’t feel is supportive of your needs and your care is a lot harder to do than standing up for yourself in an environment where you feel supported, believed, and trusted. So I think that’s a really important part of your story that you shared. I also really like how at the end of your story, you talked about you hired your doula. I think you said at 37 weeks, was it?Daniela: Yeah, 37. Yes.Julie: Yeah. I’ve been hired that late before and that’s totally fine. But I liked it because first of all, it shows that it is never too late to hire a doula, but I liked the conversation you had with your husband because I had conversations like that with my husband as well about, “Hey, I know that we can’t really afford this, but this keeps coming back to me as something that is really important and we need to figure out how to make it work.” We’ve had lots of conversations like that throughout our marriage and throughout our relationship, but it’s especially important for something like this your birth experience. If something keeps coming back to you– maybe it’s not hiring a doula. Maybe you don’t hire a doula and it’s okay. You can have a VBAC without a doula. Lots of people do it. But doulas are definitely beneficial during all births, especially for VBAC. But it kept coming up, and it kept coming back to you, and you talked to your husband about it. We were talking about birth advocacy and standing up for yourself in your space, but also, you also had enough confidence obviously, like we hope you do in your relationship with your husband, that you were like, “Okay, listen. This is what needs to happen. This keeps coming back to you” and he supported you in that.Like when you said– I am super paraphrasing right now. I am sure it’s way more complicated than this. But he was like, “Okay. Let’s figure out how to make this work,” and you guys figured it out. I think that that’s a great testament to first of all your determination, and second of all your relationship, and third of all just really honoring that intuition, and following, and trust yourself, and believing in that. All of those things are really important in order to have a birth experience you can look back on and not question your decisions and your choices. “Oh, what if? What if I did this? What if I did that?” So that’s really important. I am proud of you for doing that because I mean, finances are a big reason and a big influencer for a lot of decisions. And a lot of doulas are willing to work out trades, and payment plans, and all sorts of things. I know I certainly am and I have heard a lot of doulas certainly are. You might be surprised as you ask around and figure out whether you can make it work. I don’t know. Meagan, I feel like I’ve been talking forever. What do you have to say about advocacy, or doula work, or all of it, or anything?Meagan: No, yeah. You’re fine. I think I would say exactly what you were saying. So yeah. It’s a hard thing to do, but it is so important. It’s really crucial. Something, I think, during pregnancy, whether you have a doula or not, also don’t 100% rely on that doula to do that either. You have got to prepare yourself and I think really having the education behind VBAC and what you’re wanting to do is going to be important. And then, really in those prenatals, having deep conversations with your provider because if you have these discussions with your provider, it is going to strengthen your relationship so in those moments of, “Oh my gosh, this is hard,” you should hopefully feel like you have that established relationship. And it’s hard when you go in and you don’t even know who’s on call. That’s a difficult thing. But through the practice of advocating for yourself and saying, “This is what I want. This is what I want,” through your prenatal care, it could just truly help you in the birth scenario if that makes sense. Does that make sense? Julie: Yeah. Absolutely. Meagan: Prepare by talking to your provider and all of those things. In our course, we give tons of questions for providers, but just, yeah. Having deep conversations and learning really what matters to you, like, what you want to fight for. Julie: Yeah. I like that. Knowing what’s most important to you. I know birth plans, birth preferences, birth goals, there’s a lot of talk and dialogue about that right now in the birth community and things are shifting a little bit too about that. Don’t go in with a 10-page birth plan with bullet points about every single little detail that you want to happen exactly the way that you want it to because birth just doesn’t go like that. Everything about it is unpredictable, but having some main goals about the most important things to you is what is really going to be able to center your care with your provider and be able to allow that relationship to develop in a natural and organic way so that your provider will be able to best support you to align with those specific goals, and then all of the details will sort themselves out along the way during your birth. Meagan: I just think it’s wonderful. I love your story. I’m so grateful for your sharing it. I am wanting to wish you all the love and luck with baby number three. I’m sure it will just be amazing.Julie: Yeah, absolutely. Fall 2022. You have to let us know how it goes. We’re curious. We’re excited for you. Daniela: I will, for sure. Meagan: Yes. Please, please, please. Okay. Julie: All right, and if you listening now and are interested in how you can prepare with all of the knowledge and information that you need for your own VBAC, we are excited to share this information with you. We have a VBAC preparation course made specifically for you that will teach you everything you never knew you needed to know about VBAC, and VBAC birth, and how to prepare for it. You can find that at thevbaclink.com/shop. Learn everything about the course there and get signed up today. We also have a whole bunch of VBAC-trained and certified doulas on our website as well. You can find them at thevbaclink.com/findadoula. So it’s a twofer for you. We’ve got this course and we’ve got some doulas to help you along on your journey. So head on over to our website, give them a– check them out. Give them a checkout. What was I going to say? Give them a checkout? That makes no sense. Give them a checkout!Meagan: Give them a checkout. Check them out!Julie: And let us know how you like the course, how you’re loving our doulas, and we are excited to hear about your VBAC birth experience. ClosingInterested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands