Episode 285 Selah's 48-hour VBA2C + Changing Providers in Late Pregnancy

During her first pregnancy, Selah’s doctor predicted that her baby would be over 10 pounds. She insisted that it was not safe to deliver vaginally. Selah went right into her first Cesarean. She didn’t even have the chance to try. Her baby went to the NICU shortly after birth due to lung and blood sugar complications.When her fluid levels were low with her second pregnancy, Selah consented to another scheduled Cesarean remembering how her first one went pretty smoothly. Unfortunately, a turn of events resulted in an emergent situation, another NICU stay, and once again, Selah was not able to bond with her baby like she thought she would. Selah’s journey to her VBA2C included discovering The VBAC Link, building her supportive community, prenatal chiropractic care, and relentlessly educating herself to make sure she was set up for success. Though her labor was MUCH longer than expected, the spiritual, emotional, and physical transformation she experienced was completely worth it. Selah had a beautiful, empowering VBA2C with no complications. The best part– she got to hold that sweet baby immediately and for as looong as she wanted. Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 01:04 Review of the Week 04:08 Selah’s first pregnancy07:25 First C-section 09:36 NICU11:10 Second pregnancy13:02 Low fluids16:29 Scheduled Cesarean turned emergent21:39 Surprise third pregnancy27:33 Changing providers36:33 Going into labor39:20 Going to the hospital44:54 Pitocin48:35 The final hours56:47 A crack in the catheter1:00:00 The best feelingMeagan: Hello, hello everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link and this is Meagan, your host. We have our friend, Selah, today. Hi, Selah. Selah: Hi. Hello. Meagan: Thank you so much for being here with us. I feel like there are so many parts of your story that truly are things that people are going to relate to. We’re going to be talking about bigger babies. We’re going to talk a little bit about that. We’re going to talk about changing a provider really late in pregnancy. I actually love this topic because I did it myself and it’s one that is scary sometimes to do. Selah: Yeah. Meagan: It’s intimidating. We’ll talk a little bit about low fluid. She’s got a NICU stay. There are lots of little things. Selah: A little bit of everything. Meagan: You are going to have relations to her story. She is a VBAC after two C-section mama story so if you are a VBAC after two C-sections, listen up. It’s going to be amazing.01:04 Review of the Week Meagan: We have a review of the week so we are going to get into that then we are going to turn the time over to you, my love. Selah: Yay. Meagan: This review is– if I can find them. I just lost my reviews. It is from hannahargentina and it was on Apple Podcasts back in 2023 in February so just over a year ago. It says, “I have had a natural birth center birth, then moved out to the country and had a very traumatic C-section. I am now 37 weeks pregnant and back stateside working with an amazing birth team. I am really hoping for a VBAC in a few weeks and I love listening to all of the stories. Hearing different perspectives, and outcomes, and gaining wisdom, I feel so much more confident in my VBAC after listening to this podcast.” Well, it’s been just over a year so hannahargentina, if you are still with us, reach out at [email protected] and tell us how it went. Selah: Aww, that’s awesome. Meagan: I know right, and here we are for you and your baby’s birthday is in a couple of days. Selah: I can’t even believe it and I got tears in my eyes listening to that review because that was me. That was me listening to every single podcast, your story, all of the stories, and it helped so tremendously. I can’t even tell you. To be on today is such an honor because I was so helped by you and your podcast and the community. I could not have done it without you so thank you. Thank you for having me. Meagan: Yes. Thank you and I also want to toot the horn of the community. They are so special. If you guys have not checked it out yet or if you are not on Facebook, I would say create a secret Facebook just to be in that community because the Facebook community is amazing or join us on Instagram. These other Women of Strength truly do provide so much power. Selah: So much power and help and resources. I mean, I was on there every day just looking and posting every single worry and concern. Yeah. It’s a lot. It’s a lot to learn and to do. You need that community. You need that support. Meagan: Absolutely. Well, let’s dive into that first story of yours that began this journey to you being here right now. 04:08 Selah’s first pregnancySelah: Yes, so the back story is I had my first son in 2018 and he was an IVF baby. We struggled with infertility for four years about, I think. Finally, we did IVF and we were successful on our first try which was great. However, toward the end of my pregnancy, my doctor looked at me and said, “How big are you willing to push out as far as baby goes?” Meagan: Oh. Selah: Yeah. I looked at her and by the way, I considered myself very well-educated. I was not in hindsight. I had read a few birth books but I did not know what I know now thanks to you and the community. I did, by the way, do The VBAC Link Course so I did all of it. Meagan: Oh you did? Selah: Yes. Yes. So I was not educated to the point that I am now, but I thought I was. I looked at her and very confidently said, “12 pounds.” I didn’t even flinch. Meagan: I love that. Selah: Her eyes turned really wide and was like, “No, no, no, no, no. You cannot push out a 12-pound baby.” Meagan: Then don’t ask me what I’m willing to do here. Selah: Exactly. I was a personal trainer. I was a group fitness instructor. I consider myself very strong so I thought, “I could do that. No problem.” She said, “No. I will not let you do that. This baby is measuring bigger than 10 pounds.” At that point, I think I was just at my 40-week mark so she was like, “He’s only going to get bigger. You’re not going to be able to deliver this baby vaginally. In fact, I won’t even really let you try.” Meagan: Wow. Selah: I know. Meagan: That took a really fast turn from, “Hey, how big are you willing to? Hey, let’s offer an induction” to “Hey, I’m not even willing to let you try.” Selah: Exactly. And looking back, I’m pretty shocked at that that I wasn’t even offered an induction or anything. In fact, my water– so we scheduled the C-section for three days from then and my water ended up breaking naturally the day before the C-section. I know. I was like, “Oh. I’m going to do this. I can do this. I don’t care how big the baby is.” Meagan: Yeah. Selah: Even then, they would not let me try because there was meconium in the water. Meagan: Which isn’t a reason for a Cesarean, right? Selah: It is not. Right. Right. That’s what I know now, but back then–Meagan: You didn’t know. Selah: I didn’t know and ironically, I had a doula who said, “Oh, you need to go straight to the hospital.” I know. Meagan: Interesting. Selah: Very interesting. That is also a lesson in really interviewing your doulas, understanding birth more really, and also knowing what the doula’s experiences with both C-sections, of course VBACs, and with everything. This doula, looking back, did not have a lot of experience, I don’t think, especially with big babies, but in general. I think also she was older and not that there is anything– listen. I am older. But I think she was from a medical mindset where that would be very scary to her, meconium in the water, where now, the doula that I had for my VBAC was much more like, “No. This just means the baby is ready to come out and it means a lot of things.” 07:25 First C-sectionSelah: I rushed to the hospital. They said, “Yes. There is meconium in the water. Yes, you have a very big baby. We’re going straight to the C-section. You don’t even get to try.” I never even felt a contraction. I was pretty devastated. I had all of these plans for a drug-free birth. I had read The Bradley Method. I had done HypnoBabies. My mom– I’m one of eight kids– had pushed every single one of us out naturally without drugs. I knew I could do it. Do you know what I mean? I just was like, “Wow. This is not happening for me and I’m shocked.” I was very shocked. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Selah: So we went into the C-section but I also felt like I had no choice at that point. This was definitely–Meagan: You were stuck. Selah: Yeah. “You’re going in. That’s it.” Everything was just black and white to the medical team and even to my doula frankly. So we went in and my doctor was lovely. I have to say she was very empathetic and she knew I really wanted a natural birth. She was as lovely and empathetic as you can be. She let me play music and set up the room in a way that felt very loving. She let the nurse and everyone take pictures and videos which they are not always supposed to do. So it was as good as it could be. I got to hold him right away. We had the first 12 hours together. But then because he was so big– 10 pounds, 15 ounces, his blood sugar started dropping, and his lungs, because of the C-section, weren’t fully developed. You know how they get the practice. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes there is fluid left in the baby’s lungs too so they can have a harder time. Selah: Exactly. There was fluid left in the lungs. It’s like that sponge where not all of the sponge is there. Meagan: That’s a really good analogy. Yes. Selah: That’s what they told me which is what happened. When they go through the canal, their lungs get that practice going back and forth. 09:36 NICU Selah: So he went to the NICU after about 12 hours with me and that was a terrible experience for lack of a better word. My heart just goes out to every NICU mama who has had that experience. It’s really, really hard. I was only there for five days. I can’t imagine where you have been there for months. There are so many reasons why it is hard but for me, it was hard because I was recovering from a C-section. We were breastfeeding but now he’s hooked up on wires so that was super hard. I all of a sudden found myself having to bottle feed and pump and now I’m engorged because I’m pumping so much. It just was this crazy cycle. Eventually, like I said, he got out after five days and that was fine. I felt like my healing from that C-section was good because I didn’t have any other children to watch. Meagan: Yep. It makes a difference. Selah: It makes a huge difference and I had peace about the C-section. I really did. When he was pulled out of me, my first thought was, “Oh my gosh. He is humongous. He is a giant. He is so chunky. Maybe this was the right thing. Maybe I couldn’t have.” His head was huge. Everything was huge. You know, you do worry about pelvic floor damage and shoulder dystocia, all of that stuff. So I did have peace. I thought maybe this was the right decision and it was good to have that closure and that peace. 11:10 Second pregnancySelah: But then flash forward to my second pregnancy which, by the way, was natural. It was not through IVF. I should have known I could get pregnant naturally but I thought it was a fluke after trying so hard. My second pregnancy was in the thick of the pandemic. In fact, at our first prenatal appointment, she was like, “Don’t worry. By the time you give birth in August 2020, this will all be over.” Little did we know. Meagan: Nope. That was really thick right there. It’s not over. It’s trudging. Selah: Yes. Exactly. Going to all of the appointments alone, I was lucky to have my partner in the birthing room and in the OR. Same OB, by the way. Same OB. I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I just assumed I would have a VBAC. I told her that at the first appointment. “This time, I’m having a VBAC just so you know.” I didn’t prepare anything though. I didn’t– again, I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I didn’t know about this podcast or the community. I didn’t go to a prenatal chiropractor. I didn’t even have a doula this time because I thought, “Well, she didn’t help me.” Meagan: Honestly, I bet your opinion of that was like, “Meh.” Selah: Yeah.Meagan: And rightfully so. You didn’t have the best support there. Selah: Exactly. I did not. I just felt like, “Well, this time, I’m just doing it. I know what to do.” I did the HypnoBabies course for the first time. I didn’t even do it again. I thought I was going to do it. Also, it was the thick of the pandemic. I had a two-year-old at home. It was just chaotic. Meagan: It was a lot. Selah: It was a lot. So I do give myself a little slack in that. Meagan: 100%. Please do. Selah: Right? 13:02 Low fluidsSelah: I go along on this pregnancy and he’s not measuring extra big this time around but around week 38, I go to my appointment in the morning and it’s August, very hot in California. I’m probably dehydrated and a lot of things. I remember going on a big walk the night before. Something my doula now has told me is that in the morning, you’re obviously very dehydrated so if you go to your appointment, they may say your fluids are low. I went to the 38-week appointment and she said, “Your fluids are very low. You need to go see a specialist at MFM, maternal-fetal medicine.” Medicine, thank you. Meagan: Mhmm. Maternal-fetal medicine. Selah: Maternal-fetal medicine to go and check your fluid levels. Side note, I went to the same MFM on my first pregnancy to double-check his weight when they said it was a big baby. So I will say that was smart of me to get a second opinion and the MFM on my first pregnancy got the weight right within an ounce so I respected him and thought, “Yeah. I’ll go back.” Sure enough, my fluids were low. He agreed with her that I should get the baby out that night and said, “You know, you have a history of big babies. This baby is measuring big already.” He was not as spot on with this baby, but he said around 9 pounds and my second turned out to be 8lb 11 oz. But it’s not abnormally big, especially 8lb 11 oz is not that big. Meagan: No, and no talk of induction like, “Oh, your fluids are low. Let’s induce.” Selah: No, and that’s what I don’t understand either. But she did say, I guess I do understand because she did say, “No, I will not induce because of your C-section before. I don’t believe in induction.” Meagan: Mmm. So not evidence-based. Selah: Exactly which again, I have learned since then. Meagan: You didn’t know. Selah: Yeah. I didn’t know. I just said, “Okay.” She just said, “There is way too much risk of uterine rupture.” No numbers, just way too much. “This isn’t a good idea.” Meagan: Yeah. Selah: And also she said with the fluids being low, it was too emergent of a situation. We need to get baby out. Meagan: Yeah. It can cause baby stress. It can. Selah: It can, but there was no stress. We did the stress monitor and there was nothing. Meagan: NST? Selah: Yes. There was nothing to be afraid of except for the fluids being low. She did give me an option to go get IV fluids in the hospital, but she did it with a caveat of, “It’s probably not going to work.” Again, I felt helpless and stuck. I thought, “Well, I guess this is just my lot. I’m supposed to just have C-sections. I don’t get to try again.” Because I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I didn’t know to ask for a low dose of Pitocin. I didn’t know to ask for anything or just to give it another try or even to try the IV or drink a bunch of water and come back. I didn’t know anything. Meagan: Right. Selah: And I did not have a doula to help me or anything like that. I just went along with it. 16:29 Scheduled Cesarean turned emergentSelah: And in the C-section, this is where everything started to fall– oh, and I also thought, “Well, my previous C-section wasn’t so bad.” I had peace about it. I healed very quickly. I was okay. It’s going to be fine. Maybe this is just the way it’s supposed to be. Sadly, I had so many friends who had two C-sections and people in my life. So I thought, “It’s not so bad. These people did it.” Meagan: Right. Selah: Right. I go into it. I’m lying there. All of a sudden, it turns into an emergent situation. The doctor starts yelling/screaming for extra tools. “I need a knife. I need this.” Everybody is frantic. She starts yelling for more team members. “I need the NICU. I need this staff and this person.” Everybody starts running in. There are more people in the room. I hear my husband’s voice shaking like he’s going to cry saying, “Is everything okay?” Nobody answered for what felt like an eternity. Meagan: I have chills all up and down my body for you right now. So scary.Selah: So crazy. So scary. When I heard his voice, I thought, “One of us is not making it out alive. I don’t know what’s happening.” It was so scary. Obviously, I still get emotional thinking about it because I didn’t know what was happening. Finally, I heard him cry and everything was okay, but they whisked him away immediately. My husband said I did put him on my chest for I think it was a minute, but I barely remember that. That’s how traumatic it was. Yes. I do have a picture of me reaching my arms out to him so I know he did land on my chest, but my eyes are filled with tears reaching my arms to him. They whisk him away to the NICU immediately. Same problem with his lungs. He wasn’t breathing. They were worse than my first actually. Later, I found out– my doctor came to visit me and she said, “What happened was when she made the incision, his head had moved,” so she didn’t want to cut through the placenta from what I understand obviously. So she had to make a bigger incision. She needed special tools. Meagan: Special scar. Is it a special scar or just longer? Selah: It’s just longer, yeah. Meagan: Okay, so it’s not up. Selah: Exactly. Thank God because I think that would have made it scarier. Meagan: A little bit more difficult sometimes to VBAC the next time too to get support. Selah: Exactly. To get support, exactly. Yeah. That was good at least that she just made it a little longer. But that was why it became so emergent. Same thing. He was in the NICU the whole five days. I remember saying to my husband in the NICU. I looked at him and I said, “We are done. We are not getting pregnant again. I cannot go through this again.” I didn’t think I’d ever be able to birth naturally first of all, so I cannot have another C-section. This was way too much. Meagan: Yeah. Selah: And then the healing was awful because I had a two-year-old at home. Everything about this was just not good. I did not want to ever do this again. 21:39 Surprise third pregnancySelah: So flash forward to 2022, two years later, I’m still breastfeeding my two-year-old just at night. I had my period back. I should have known, but I was tracking my ovulation cycle. I was not ovulating. I’m 41 years old and I think, “There’s no way. I’m not ovulating. I’m 41. I’m breastfeeding,” but bam. I got pregnant. Surprise, surprise after 20 years of infertility, I’m like, “Why am I fertile Myrtle now?” Meagan: Oh my gosh. Selah: I know. It was crazy. I have a video on my Instagram of my husband’s expression finding out. It was utter disbelief. So yes. We find ourselves pregnant again and I thought, “Oh no. What am I going to do? I can’t in the operating room again. I can’t do it. I will not do it. There has to be another way.” But I crazily called the same provider because I didn’t know who else I was going to go to. Meagan: Right. That’s who you know. Selah: It’s who you know. The receptionist said, “Oh, she’s not delivering anymore.” Meagan: Oh. Selah: I know. I got chills all over my body. I knew this was a sign from God. I just knew it that there had to be another way and that I was going to do something different this time. I was not going to be down that same road of a C-section in the OR and I didn’t have to go through that again. I reached out to one of my friends I knew who had a VBAC. It was actually a home birth VBAC. It was a HBAC. She said, “You have to start listening to The VBAC Link immediately.” Meagan: Oh, tell her thank you. Selah: Yes. These are all of the resources. She knew this MFM in Long Beach. I’m in Los Angeles so it was about an hour away who also delivers and he is very VBAC supportive. In fact, he does all sorts of births. High risk births he is known for. He was an hour away so that wasn’t my top choice, but she sent me a bunch of different ideas for a doula and different doctors. I set about on my journey. I interviewed five different OBs. The first two said, “Absolutely not. We will not do a VBAC after two C-sections and anybody who does is basically a bad doctor. It’s too risky.” Meagan: Oh my. That doesn’t make you feel good. Selah: I know. But by then, I had been listening to the podcast so I knew. I’m like, “Mmm, no. These are the reasons. This is the rate of risk for uterine rupture. This is the rate of risk for a third C-section. I am doing this and I’m just going to find someone who is going to let me.” So I then interviewed two more I now know as VBAC tolerant, not as VBAC supportive. They had a list of stipulations that I needed to meet in order to do it. Then the fifth one was a doctor that I had known previously. I was not crazy about him. He just had a weird bedside manner for lack of a better word. I just felt like I didn’t mesh with him. He was very VBAC supportive, another high-risk pregnancy doctor in Los Angeles who is VERY well-known as someone who delivers triplets naturally, delivers twins naturally. He does breech births. I had been in my friend’s breech birth– well, she wasn’t breech when she delivered. He flipped baby before she delivered and I was in the room. This was pre-COVID when he was her doctor so I knew him really well. I just did not mesh with him personality-wise. So I chose the other doctor, one of the VBAC tolerant doctors. He was so kind and so lovely, but he did have a list of what I needed to meet. I was showing this list to the community members on Facebook. Everybody was like, “No. He is not a supportive doctor.” He said, “You’re older. That affects things,” which there is no evidence of that at all. He said, “You have to go into labor by 40 weeks,” which again, there is no evidence of that. All of these stipulations. The worst part was that he made me go see an MFM that he worked with of his choosing by the way. I coudln’t go to that other one that I really respected. I had to go to his MFM and that MFM had to monitor me and look at the uterine wall to see if the wall was okay throughout pregnancy. I know. Meagan: Mmm-mmm. Selah: I had to go to countless appointments. Every week I was in the doctor. I know. That MFM, around 20 weeks said, “Listen. Your uterine wall has a window of I think it was 1 centimeters and 3 millimeters thin. I do not think you are going to be able to do this because there is a window in your uterine wall.” This was at 20 weeks, so I thought, “It’s only going to get worse for me from here.” Meagan: That would make sense for you. That would make sense to think that. Selah: I started thinking of other options because I had a sneaky suspicion that this MFM is not going to clear me which my OB said, “If he doesn’t clear you, I will not do it.” Meagan: “I won’t support it.” Selah: “I won’t support it.” Right. 27:33 Changing providersSelah: I started getting a little worried now. Pause to say that I had been going to prenatal chiropractor appointments with an amazing Dr. Berlin in Los Angeles. Everybody knows him. Meagan: We love him so much. Yes. We’ve had him on the podcast and I actually just was on his podcast which was amazing. It was just so crazy that it was happening. We love Dr. Berlin. Selah: He’s the best. He is so great. I mean, he was a doula himself and he obviously is such an amazing chiropractor. He was making sure the baby was in the right position, that my body was open, and all that. I was going every week. I mean, he just was so knowledgeable. He said, “Listen. You might want to give that first doctor you didn’t mesh with another consideration. I’ve been in so many births with him. He is so good at high-risk birth. If you really want this VBAC, you might want to go back to him.” I started rethinking. He was in the back of my mind. Meanwhile, I also had this incredible doula this time around named Johanna, Johanna Story. She said the same thing. She said, “Listen.” She had been in 2500 births in Los Angeles. Meagan: Whoa! Selah: Yes. She is also a licensed midwife so she has delivered babies. By the way, I had considered a home birth for a hot second with Johanna, but my husband was not. He was so supportive of the VBAC that I didn’t want to push him. He was the best teammate and not let me, but he was on board with everything I wanted to do. So I just thought, “You know, he’s not crazy about the home birth with our two others running around. I get it.” I said, “Let’s do the hospital birth with Johanna.” The reason I also liked Johanna is she was going to do– oh my gosh, I am blanking on the word– where they monitor you until you are about to– Meagan: Like Monitrice? Selah: Yes Monitrice. So Johanna, because she is a licensed midwife, she could do monitrice. I felt like that was the best of both worlds. Let’s have her monitor me until the last minute then we will go in. As I learned on the podcast, that is the plan. Wait until the last minute so they can’t do anything to you. Meagan: Labor as long as you can at home. Selah: Yes. That was the plan. That was why I had Johanna. She also encouraged me to go back to Dr. Brock. Meagan: I was wondering if it was Dr. Brock. Selah: It was Dr. Brock. He is very quirky, his personality. Meagan: We have had him on the podcast as well. Selah: He is wonderful and he just has a quirky sense of humor so that is what it is. I didn’t know that at first. I kind of thought, “Who is this guy? What is he saying?” But both Dr. Berlin and Johanna encouraged me to go back to him with that frame of mind. He’s just a little quirky. “Just go back and talk to him again.” But I wanted to wait until I went to my last MFM appointment with the MFM that my first OB had. Meagan: The one who said you had a window, that one? Selah: The one I had a window, yes. He said, “This window has only gotten bigger, obviously at 32 weeks. I do not recommend a VBA2C. I cannot recommend it to your OB. Sorry.” I cried in that office thinking maybe there was a miracle and things were going to change. I actually ended up going to see that first MFM who was an hour away for a second opinion. He explained to me, “Yes. There is what you can see a window on an ultrasound.” He said, “First of all, I do not find ultrasounds very accurate. I do not know how big it is and how thick it is. Secondly, even if there is a window, there is absolutely no evidence of a correlation between that and a rupture. There’s no evidence.” Meagan: Yeah. They can’t really do the measuring thing and tell you that you are going to rupture or not. Selah: That’s what he said. He said, “I really think you’re okay to try. You will know in the birth and your doctor should know if something is going wrong and your doula too.” He said, “I really think you should try and you need to try.” Oh, the other cool thing he did– I really love him. Dr. Shivera in Long Beach if anyone is local. He is really wonderful and does a ton of high-risk birth. I just didn’t want to go that far so that was my thing with that. But he said, “I looked at what happened in the operating room with your second C-section, and exactly what you said before, it is not a special scar.” He looked at all of the details. It really made me feel that there was nothing wrong with that birth. Meagan: Or abnormality, yeah. Selah: No abnormality, yeah. He was like, “I really think you are okay to try.” That was really reassuring too. I cried with happiness. I cried everywhere. Meagan: Yeah. Lots of emotions. Selah: Lots of emotion. Then at 32 weeks, I went back to my first OB and he had gotten the results from that MFM and sure enough said, “I cannot support a VBA2C.” There, it was very interesting. I did cry there too but I felt this weird sense of shame like I should not have gotten pregnant. I should not be in this position because they made me feel like you are risking too much. You are risking your baby’s life. You are risking your life. Why do you want this so much? On the other side, I thought, “I can’t go into the operating room. I can’t do it emotionally or psychologically. I just can’t. Put me out then because I won’t be able to be there.” That was where this weird shame came in like, “Why did I even get pregnant?” I even said it out loud to my husband then I even felt shame about that. We had this miracle baby. I couldn’t believe it. But there were all of these weird emotions and things that were associated with that second C-section in particular. I went back to Dr. Berlin. I remember crying in his office too and he was just saying, “Go to Dr. Brock. Go to Dr. Brock,” and Johanna too. Finally, I made an appointment. I think it was at 34 weeks when I saw Dr. Brock. He said, “You’ve never tried to labor. You’ve never felt a contraction. You can do this. I think you can do this and the baby is in the perfect position. He is not measuring big.” I also loved this. He did the fundal measurement. Meagan: Fundal measurement is the whole from the pubic bone-up thing. Selah: It almost felt like a midwife technique to measure the weight and everything, not the ultrasound. I remember being so scared every time I went into the ultrasound, how big is he going to be? Yeah, but he didn’t even want to talk about weight. He said to me, “Well, how big do you think this baby is?” I said, “Uh, 8 pounds. He feels normal to me. I don’t know.” He said, “So then he will be.” He just was very calm and the other huge thing he did which I forgot to mention. The first OB with this MFM changed my due date because they said the baby was measuring early so they changed it to March 17th but according to my cycle, he was due March 31st. Meagan: That’s a difference. Selah: It’s a huge difference. 31st. The last day of the month. Meagan: The last day, uh-huh. Selah: The last day. That is a huge difference. So when I went to Dr. Brock, he said, “No. This baby is due according to your cycle, March 30th or March 31st. You don’t have anything to worry about. You are measuring completely on time. Go on.” Now, in hindsight, he was born at 40 weeks and 3 days. So yeah, I guess it was March 30th. He was born at 40 weeks and 3 days. If it had been according to the first due date, there is no way the OB would have let me keep going. I mean, that was 10 days after. Thank God Dr. Brock changed my due date and was completely relaxed about everything. I never felt stressed. I never felt any anxiety that I felt going to the appointments from the first OB. Meagan: That’s good. Selah: He was quirky, but now I saw him in a completely different light. I saw him as somebody who would support me and let me do my thing. 36:33 Going into laborSelah: Sure enough, going into the labor, I felt like the night of March 26th, there was bloody show at around 10:00 PM. I texted my doula and she said, “It could be any minute or it could be days still so just hang tight. Relax. Go to bed. Get some sleep.” I went to bed and I woke up with the wetness. It wasn’t a huge gush like the first one. It was just a little bit of wet. Meagan: Trickle? Selah: Trickle, yes. I wasn’t sure. My doula said it could be just a little bit of leakage or it could have been my water breaking. Let’s just wait and see. Sure enough, a couple of hours later, I started feeling contractions and I was so excited. I was just happy. It was so crazy because obviously, most people would be like, “Ow, this hurts,” and I was just like, “Yes.” Meagan: Cheering them on, yes. Well, you had never experienced them before. Selah: Exactly. Exactly. I texted my mom. She was so excited. I just was thinking the whole time, “I can’t believe this is finally happening.” Again, we didn’t know that my water had broken for sure so we just wanted to sort of wait before we told the doctor because he didn’t say, “Oh, there is a 24-hour clock once your water breaks.” He didn’t say that at all, but we were concerned if we told the hospital– whatever. We just wanted to wait and see how labor progressed. The contractions did start progressing. It was about– I don’t know– five or six hours at home and they started getting really fast and strong every four to five minutes. Yeah. I was like, “Oh, this is happening. This is happening fast. I may even have this baby at home,” which is laughable now looking back.I went in the shower. She encouraged me to go into the shower and try to rest. I couldn’t because I was so excited then my kids woke up around 6:00 AM. My doula got there around 5:00 AM and the contractions again were coming super strong and hard. She was helping me. She was massaging me, but because they were coming so frequently, they started speeding up to every 2-3 minutes, I thought, “We’ve got to get to the hospital.” I really actually did think, “Maybe this baby is actually going to fly out.” This is crazy. I might have an accidental home birth which is the goal, right? That’s what everybody wants. Meagan: To a lot of people, it’s a dream, yes. Selah: It was. It was actually my dream. “Maybe it will just fly out. It will be fine.” We go. My doula, to give her credit, was like, “I still think you should stay home. You’re just probably really excited.” I was scared too, I think, deep down. I said, “Oh no. I don’t know. We should go to the doctor.” 39:20 Going to the hospitalSelah: We went to the hospital. We had called the doctor. He said, “When did your water break?” I said, “I don’t know. It might have been this morning.” I kind of pushed it a little because I really wasn’t sure. We got to the hospital and at that point, I had labored about 10 hours, but in the triage, a resident checked me and said I was only at a 1 and it had been 10 hours. This is the lesson to everybody. Please try to labor at home longer. I should have stayed at home longer. Meagan: Well and also numbers. We look at 2-3 minutes apart and we’re like, “They’re 2-3 minutes apart. They’re 2-3 numbers apart.” But let’s look at the length and let’s look at that strength. How is coping? Are they so intense that you can’t even focus on what is going on in the space and it takes you a minute to get back into that moment or is it like, “Whoa, this is really, really hard,” and you’re talking through it, but then they’re gone.Selah: That’s right. Yes. I should have listened to my doula because I feel like it’s exactly what you just described. I could have labored at home longer as we will see because I ended up laboring. Selah: I’ll tell you the middle of what happened in between but it ended up being 48 hours total of being in labor. It was way too early to go to the hospital. The reason why that was a problem too is because they hooked me up to the monitor because it was a VBAC and because of all of the reasons they do. We insisted on a wireless monitor but they couldn’t get a good connection so I ended up having to walk around with this wire which was not easy and I could only go so far. I feel like if I had labored at home and been able to move and do stretches or whatever more freely, it would have been way better to do that. That was kind of a bummer. Meagan: Yeah. Selah: But that still wasn’t enough to deter me. I stayed very calm. I listened to worship music for the entire 48 hours and also HypnoBabies. I would say my mantras over and over. I was literally singing and praising God for each contraction. It was crazy. I would feel a contraction come on and I would thank God for it because I knew this was just getting me closer. To be in that state of gratitude and have that openness and open heart and be just thankful for it after all of this time and all of these years and wishes and dreams and desires of my heart to experience this– it was incredible– I mean, incredible to have that feeling. I honestly felt no pain. I know that sounds crazy because it was so long. Meagan: It doesn’t. Selah: It was the most intense spiritual, incredible connection to God I’ve ever felt. I don’t know. It was amazing. Meagan: Amazing, yeah. Selah: The doctor and the nurses were all encouraging me to get a catheter for an epidural to put in and I kept pushing it off. I didn’t want it. I said, “I’m not going to need it. I don’t want it.” This isn’t to say there is any shame at all in having an epidural.Meagan: You just didn’t want it. Selah: I didn’t want it. I researched with you and knowing that it could cause more of a chance for a C-section, I just didn’t want it. I said, “I’m not going to do it.” I put it off, put it off, put it off.I should say this was very interesting. The contractions were happening all day that Sunday 2-4 minutes apart. They felt very intense like they were building up, but again, it wasn’t super painful and my doula kept having me switch positions. She and my husband were incredible with non-stop massages and encouraging words and putting me in positions to really help me. That is another reason I didn’t feel the pain that maybe another person might. They really, really helped. But it was after certainly bedtime. I think it was after 24 hours and my doctor was like, “Okay.” Oh, I should say the contractions slowed down from being 2-4 minutes apart to happening 5-7, even 10 minutes apart. They really slowed down. At that point, after 24 hours, I was at a– I think, I want to say…actually let me look here really quick. Okay, so day turned into night around 8:00 PM that first day. I had dilated to a 4 and I was fully effaced at 0 station. I really thought I was going to keep dilating and I would meet my baby by the end of that night, that first night but soon, it got into I think about 24 hours of labor and that’s when the contractions started to slow down to 5-7 minutes. The doctor wanted to start me on Pitocin. Yeah, it was the 24-hour mark at 2:00 AM to progress more. I did not want Pitocin because of everything I had learned. I just thought, “There’s no way. This is going to lead to another C-section. I don’t want it.” He promised me. He said, “Let me start you very low. We’re just going to try to get these contractions going a little bit faster.” 44:54 PitocinSelah: So we started the very lowest dose. They stayed 5-10 minutes apart, but I did get to a 6 that way. I did not feel any pain on the Pitocin which I was very scared of. I know. So he kept upping it and soon, I was at the max level of Pitocin. I did not feel a difference. My contractions stayed 5-10 minutes apart. The good thing about that was between those long contraction breaks, I would literally fall asleep and everybody in the room was laughing because they were like, “She’s snoring.” There was a running joke in my friend circle and family that I can sleep through anything and I’m a very deep sleeper so this is no surprise to them. My husband was laughing. I mean, I was sound asleep and then I would feel a contraction, wake up, and start singing out loud. It was hilarious. There were various positions that were better for me. Being on the toilet was definitely helpful. Being in almost like a child’s pose position, but the best of all was side-lying with the ball in between. That really seemed to help open me up and it was also great because then after the contraction was over, I would fall asleep from that side-lying. That’s how that kept working with the sleep breaks. Selah: But that being said, the Pitocin did not seem like it was doing anything. That’s why he kept upping it. We are now at about 36 hours of labor. I was at a 6. So I was getting a little worried that he wasn’t going to let me keep going, but he did. He kept letting me go and then the one thing he did insist on though, at about 4:30 on day two was that I get that catheter for the epidural in my back.That was the only thing that ended up causing pain. I don’t know if it’s where they placed it. I don’t know what, but all of a sudden, I started vomiting from that area. It was really bad. That catheter hurt so bad and there was nothing they could do. There was no epidural in there. I didn’t want the epidural. I didn’t need it for the contractions. It was just that area. They put some numbing cream on it. That kind of helped, but that is what really hurt. I don’t know if it was where the baby was. As he started dropping more, the pain lessened in that area, but that catheter really hurt. Everybody on the community page said not to get it which is why I pushed hard about not getting it. Now, I feel like they were right because again, I understand why people do get it just in case. My doctor said, “Have your seatbelt on. If you go to a C-section, we need that so you do not have to be put under.” You know what I mean?But I should have said in retrospect, “You know what? If go to a C-section, I want to be put under.” Meagan: Well, and the thing is that it still has to be dosed and that still takes time so–Selah: Right. Meagan: I don’t know. Maybe, I guess it’s a little faster but it still has to be dosed. Selah: It still has to be dosed. In retrospect, I don’t understand why he insisted on that so much, but I really appreciated him so much at that moment and all he had done to support me that I thought, “This is the one thing he is insisting on. I’m going to go with it.” I said yes, but again, I wish I hadn’t. It really, really, really hurt. 48:35 The final hoursSelah: The contractions were still 5-7 minutes apart, but all of a sudden, around 5:30 PM– this is on day two, and remember, everything had started around 2:00 AM the night before. So now, we’re almost to 48 hours. At 5:30 PM on day two during one of my little cat naps, I all of a sudden woke up with this involuntary urge to push. I just kept pushing with each contraction. All sorts of stuff was coming out of my body. It was insane like, “What is happening?” Everyone in the room was like, “Oh my gosh. This baby is coming. This is awesome.” Imagine my surprise when the resident doctor came in and checked me and said I was only at an 8 and station +1. Meagan: What? Selah: I burst into tears. I think that was the moment I got really discouraged. Everyone said on the podcast and in the community that means baby is about to be born. You are getting close. Meagan: When you start doubting like that, yeah. Selah: Exactly. Exactly, but I just thought, “There is no way. How could I only be an 8? I don’t know how much longer I can do this. It’s almost 48 hours.” I heard myself saying this out loud. My doula reminded me. She was like, “These are just estimates. The residents want to estimate on the lower side because they don’t want to fool the doctor and have him come in and be like, ‘Why did you say she was complete?’ It would not be good.” Meagan: That happens. Just to let you know, that really actually does happen. I’ve seen it with my own eyes as a doula. Selah: Right? They err on the side that benefits them essentially. Meagan: They fluff it in the backward way. Selah: Yeah. Yes. Meagan: They fluff it like, “Oh, you’re 9 centimeters,” when you’re really 8. It’s like you are 8 centimeters and they are saying you are 6 centimeters. They do this weird thing and it’s like magical progression. Selah: Exactly. My doula kept reminding me of that even when we first got there and they said I was a 1. She said, “No. I think you are a 3 or a 4.” So yeah. Exactly. But I was so discouraged. I do feel like another side note God gave me the nurses at the right point that I needed. They were progressively more supportive. The first nurse I started off with was super intense. She, by the way, was insisting on a– is it called a UEP? A uterine– Meagan: IUPC. Intrauterine pressure catheter. Selah: Yes. That’s right. IPCP. Meagan: IUPC. Yep. Selah: IUPC. There you go. She kept insisting on that. My doctor wanted that too, but he gave up basically because I said, “Nope. I’m not getting that. No.” I believe there is a small, small chance of rupture from that, right?Meagan: Well, it causes infection. It goes up into the body so anytime we do any of that, it can increase the chances of things like Cesarean. Selah: Right, so I thought, “I’ve come this far. I’m not doing that. You’re monitoring me with the monitor. I’m not doing this other catheter.” By the way, I was in labor posting that on the community page and people were like, “Do not do that. This is why.” So again, this community is so helpful. So all that to say, the first nurse was very intense. The second one was fine, but the third one that I had during that moment– her name was Shamika. I will never forget. She said, “You are not giving up now. I have seen you. I have seen you singing. I have heard you singing. I have seen you thanking God during these contractions. I’ve seen you laboring with joy. You are doing this. Do not give up.” I am telling you, I felt like God put her in my labor at that moment because I needed that. My husband and my doula, Johanna, were saying, “You’re not giving up now. You’ve come this far. You’ve got this.” And Johanna reminded me again, “This is just an estimate.” So sure enough, I was there. I really thought, I don’t know, “Is it going to happen in another four hours like, 5:30?” Around 8:30 at night, they checked me again and I was complete. The doctor gets called in and he says, “All right. Time to push.” Johanna had warned me about this. She said, “Dr. Brock really likes women to push out on their back.” I know there’s a lot of stuff about that.Meagan: Controversy. Selah: Yeah, controversy. “So I just want to warn you that he’s going to have you on your back. You’re going to be in the stirrups but if it doesn’t work, we can go from there. But let’s start in that position.” I’m so glad she prepped me because I have heard a lot in the VBAC communities that you shouldn’t push on your back and all of that stuff. But for me, I actually did like on my back because he had me hold these bars. I don’t know if that’s normal. Meagan: Yeah. I’ve seen them. Yeah.Selah: I’m a workout junkie, so for me, it felt very strong to pull on these bars with my upper body muscles and then push with my legs. It felt doable in other words, but I didn’t realize how much this is true which is the two steps forward, one step back. Meagan: 100%. Selah: That is so frustrating. I didn’t know. I know I had heard it but I didn’t realize how true it was. That was very frustrating to see his head come out and then go back in. But again, that’s his little lungs getting more developed and everything. I did have a mirror which really helped to see and it felt like again, it was like you were going to the bathroom. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Selah: I feel like more people need to know that that it really is what it feels like. You just have to push it out. Meagan: The biggest poop you’ll ever take. That’s what I say. Selah: Yes. It’s so true. It really is. I was just pushing and pushing. We are nearing the 48-hour mark. I was pushing for three hours. Meagan: Wow. Selah: Yes. It was close to three hours. Basically, the contractions stayed 5-7 minutes apart. I stayed resting in between. I was on the max dose of Pitocin. Dr. Brock was getting a little frustrated so he said, “Listen. You have less than an inch to go to get this baby out. He is going to come out. Don’t worry. He’s going to come out, but I really would like to use the vacuum to get him out all of the way.” I thought that was great because a lot of, I’ve heard, VBAC doctors will not use the vacuum because it’s a little bit risky with cranial damage so I was actually grateful and obviously tired so I was like, “Yes. Do whatever it takes. Get this baby out.” “But,” he said, “I want to fill your catheter with an epidural.” At that point, now, I should say I had this prayer list and every single thing had been met from the nurses to not using drugs. I did not want the epidural. By the way, not only did I not want the risk of a C-section with the epidural. The other reason was that I had been so drugged with my other two C-sections that like I said, I barely remember holding the baby on my chest. I was so woozy and out of it. I didn’t want that again. But he said, “I want to put some push epidural in so that you won’t feel the vacuum and that he’ll come out.” I was so tired. My fight was so done that I felt like I had to give in and let him do this the way he wanted to and if that meant having a push epidural, then I’d do it. I’ll do the push epidural. 56:47 A crack in the catheterSelah: In comes the anesthesiologist. She looks at the catheter that’s in my back and says, “There is a crack in the cap of the catheter.” Meagan: No!Selah: “We can’t do it. We can’t put an epidural here. There is a tiny crack. Bacteria could get in, whatever. We can’t do it.” Dr. Brock was like, “Are you serious? This is insane.” I said, “Good because I didn’t want it anyway.” My doula–Meagan: You’re like, “Let’s just get this baby out.” Selah: Exactly. I said, “It’s fine. Listen. I’ve come this far. I’m sure it’s not going to hurt that much.” He said, “Are you sure? Because also thought it would be good to do any sewing up after from any tears.” I said, “Yes. Just do it. I don’t need it. It’s fine.” By the way, there’s no choice. You can’t put it in. She said no. The anesthesiologist was like, “Nope. I’m out.” So I pushed and he said, “All right. You’re going to feel a little pressure. I’m going to push on your stomach. You’re going to push at the same time. I’m going to vacuum and he’ll come out.” I said, “Okay, let’s do this.” Sure enough, it felt almost like the C-section when they pushed on your uterus. Yeah, a little bit. But it wasn’t painful. It was just pressure. It was just a very weird feeling actually of the vacuum. The sewing up of the tear– I had a second-degree tear which isn’t that bad considering he was 9 pounds. Meagan: Very standard. Selah: Very standard. He was 9 pounds, 5 ounces– big baby. He also had a big head so that was pretty good actually that I only tore that much. It didn’t even hurt when he sewed me up at all. It felt a little weird, but it didn’t hurt and it was amazing. I couldn’t believe it, the feeling that he came out of my body that way! He went right on my chest and he was crying so loud. He was so healthy. The best part of all, I mean, I was just so overwhelmed and so happy. I didn’t even really cry. I was just happy. I was just joyful. The best part of all, though, he didn’t have to go to the NICU at all. Meagan: Yes. Selah: He literally laid down by my side the whole night. We were never separated. I breastfed all night and by the way, you know they come in and they want to make sure he’s in his bassinet. I’m like, “Nope.” I kept him right by me. That might be a little controversial, but I couldn’t let go. I really couldn’t let go because this was so mind-blowing that he could be there and that all of my fears, all of my worries, all of my hard work, all of that was over. All of the appointments, all of the wondering, I felt like, “I did it. God did it. We did it.” Meagan: You did it. Selah: It was incredible. Then bringing him home and knowing that there was no worry about his breathing, about his blood sugar, and that so far, my other two have asthma which is so sad. I don’t know if it’s related to the C-sections because my husband also had asthma so it could not be. Meagan: It can be thought. Selah: It can be, yeah. This one doesn’t have asthma so far. No allergies. The other two have allergies. It’s crazy the things that I’ve seen, but most of all, my healing was night and day. I know that’s not always normal for a VBAC or a vaginal birth. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Selah: But I personally was up and about on day two. I mean, night and day, no problems. Of course, I was a little sore. It felt like I had just run a marathon, but nothing. And of course, now, I pee a little when I sneeze. Meagan: So pelvic floor therapy will help. Selah: Pelvic floor which I need to do. And that also happens, by the way, with C-sections. I also had that with my C-sections but I feel like all of it was 1000% worth it. Everybody said it would be and they were right. Everybody who I had read the stories or heard the stories about. It was so worth it. 1:00:00 The best feelingSelah: The feeling of having him come out that way but also being able to hold him and be with him and not have surgery. I mean, it was just night and day and such an incredible feeling of empowerment and for me, my faith, witnessing God do what I thought was impossible and what I felt like was natural. It was just an incredible experience knowing that everything was okay. The uterine wall window didn’t happen. Meagan: Oh yes. Yes. Selah: None of those fears happened. Everything was okay and he was perfect. So perfect and beautiful and such a surprise baby to happen that way. Meagan: I am so happy for you. Selah: I feel like it was so redemptive. Meagan: Yes and it should have been. I’m so proud of you for going through the motions, doing the research, recognizing what’s right, and what’s not right, making the change, embracing the change, and then also still pushing forward through that whole birth. That’s amazing. Such a long birth. Such a beautiful birth. Selah: Such a long birth. Meagan: I’m so glad you had the support. It was and I’m just so happy for you and that you are sharing this story today. Selah: Thank you. Well, and I will say like you said, the support is so– my doula stayed the entire 48 hours. Meagan: Wow. Selah: She did not eat. She did not sleep. She did not leave. She was amazing. Then, my husband– I feel like if your partner is not 100% on board, that you really need that. He was 1000% on board and he did not sleep, eat, or do anything either. Meagan: Yeah. Selah: I really am thankful for that and thankful for this community and The VBAC Link podcast and everything. It was really what was the driving force. I can’t believe I did it. I really can’t and I love helping other women now too. It’s just such a blessing. Meagan: Full circle. Yes. It’s the full circle. Oh, well thank you again so much. Selah: Thank you for having me. It was such an honor. It really was. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands