Episode 342 CNM Paige Boran + What Midwifery Care Looks Like + How Can a Midwife Impact our VBAC?

“Labor is supposed to happen naturally. It’s not this big medical intervention that occasionally happens naturally. It’s this natural process that occasionally needs medical intervention.”Paige Boran is a certified nurse-midwife from Fort Collins, Colorado. She and her colleague, Jess, practice independently at A Woman’s Place. They have rights to deliver babies at the hospital but are not employed through the hospital system so they are not subject to physician oversight. Their patients benefit from a low-intervention environment within a hospital setting but without the restriction of hospital policies.Lily Wyn, our Content Creator and Social Media Admin, joins us today as well! Lily shares why she chose Paige to support her through her current VBAC pregnancy. Lily is a beautiful example of how to diligently interview providers, keep an open mind, process past fears with the provider you choose, and what developing a relationship looks like to create an empowering birthing experience. Paige shows us just how valuable midwifery care can be, especially when going for a VBAC. If you’re looking for a truly VBAC-supportive provider, this is a great episode on how to do it! The VBAC Link’s VBAC Supportive Provider ListA Woman's PlaceHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Paige: Yeah, so I’m a certified nurse-midwife. I work in northern Colorado in Fort Collins at A Woman’s Place. We’re a small midwifery-owned practice. Right now, there are just two CNMs. That’s the whole practice. It’s just me and my colleague, Jess, who owns it which is really cool because we get to push the boundaries because we are not really locked into the hospital system. We are able to catch babies there but we are not actually employed through the bigger hospital systems which is nice because we don’t have that physician oversight and stuff like that. I think we are able to do a lot more and honor that midwifery care model which is really cool. Sometimes people feel locked into policies and their overseeing physician and things like that but when it’s just two midwives, we get to do what we want and what feels best for the patient. I really like that. That was a big thing when I first got into the certified nurse midwifery world. I was like, where do I want to work? I had offers from bigger hospital systems and it just didn’t feel like the right fit so working at a small, privately-owned practice felt like the right answer for me so I was able to practice in a way I felt was right for people. I didn’t want to be locked in by a policy and overseeing physicians. I just wanted to grow with other midwives. Meagan: Yes. I love that so much. I don’t know. Maybe I should say I know it feels to me– I don’t know it as an actual fact, but that feels like a unique situation and a unique setup to me. We don’t really have that that I know of here in Utah. We either have out-of-hospital CPMs or we have in-hospital CNMs who are just hospital. I know that one hospital system is trying to do the attached birth center, but it is still very different. They are still the hospital umbrella midwives I guess I could say. So is that unique or is that just something that feels like it?Paige: I think it’s unique because where I came from in Florida, if you were a CNM, you 100% practiced in the hospital which we do but it was that you were owned by a larger group of physicians essentially. Florida was working towards independent practice when I was there. Colorado is an independent-practiced state for nurse practitioners which is really cool because we don’t have to have that oversight. I don’t know if Florida ever got there but I know it varies state to state on if you have to be overseen by a physician or not. Honestly, that’s why a lot of people when they are ready to become a midwife, if they don’t have independent practice rights as a CNM even if they are a nurse, they will go for a CPM which is a certified professional midwife because they actually have more autonomy to do what they want outside of the hospital because they are not bound by all of the laws and stipulations which is interesting. Meagan: Exactly. I think that’s a big thing– the CPM/CNM thing when people are looking for midwives. Do you have any suggestions about CPM versus CNM? If a VBAC mom is looking at a CPM, is that a safe and reasonable option?Paige: Absolutely. Yes. I think CPMs and CNMs are both reasonable, safe options. They both have training in that. They both can honor your holistic journey. I would say the biggest thing is who you feel most connected to because I think trusting your team, you will have people who have the worst birthing outcome and horrible stories but they are like, “I look back and I feel so good about it because I trusted my team.” I think that is what’s important. If a CPM seems like your person and that’s who you are going to trust, then that’s who you should go for whereas a CNM, if that seems like that’s your person and who you trust, I think that would be a good route too. I think a lot of people think, “Oh, they do home births. They must catch babies in a barn and there is no regulation. Even sometimes when I say, “midwife,” people are like, “What? Do you dress like a nun and catch babies in a barn?”Meagan: Yes, this is real though. These are real thoughts. If you are listening, and not to make fun of you if you think this, this is a real thing. This is a myth surrounding midwifery care, especially out-of-hospital midwives where a lot of people think a lot of different things. Paige: Absolutely. Meagan: I think I had a chicken chaser or something where a dad was like, “Do you chase chickens?” I was like, “What?” He said, “Well, that’s what the midwives do so that’s what the doulas do.” I’m like, “What? No, we don’t chase chickens.” Paige: That is such old-school thinking but realistically, midwives started in the home and that was their history. It’s cool that they’ve been able to step into the hospital and bring some of that back into the hospital because I think that is needed. Meagan: It is needed, yeah. Paige: We are starting to see that physicians are starting to be a little bit more holistic and see things in the whole picture, but I’m glad that the midwives did step into the hospital because I think that needed to be there but I’m so glad that people are still doing it at home because I think that is such a good option for people. Meagan: Yeah, so talking abou the midwives in the hospital, a lot of people are talking about how they are overseen by OBs. Is this common? Does this happen where you are at? You kind of said you are separated but do the hospital midwives in your area or in most areas, are they always overseen by OBs? Paige: Not necessarily. It would vary state to state and hospital to hospital. We actually just got privileges and admitting privileges a couple of years ago. Actually, my boss, Jess, who owns the practice where I work, had worked in Denver where they were allowed to admit their patients and everything. They didn’t have to have any physician oversight but when she was there, she had to have physician oversight. She was like, “It’s an hour drive north, why would that make a difference?” It was the same hospital system so she fought when she bought the practice and the physician who owned it prior left, she was alone and she had to have that physician oversight so she fought for independent practice privileges and she got it. Some of the midwives at first weren’t so happy about it because they had liked being overseen by the doctor and someone signing off on all of their things. Some of the midwives were like, “Finally. We should be able to practice independently.” It’s going to vary at each place. But I think that’s a good thing to ask, “If something is going wrong, will a physician just come unannounced into my room in the hospital?” That’s not the case with ours. We have to invite them in and if we are inviting them in, we’ve probably had a conversation multiple times with the patient where it’s like, we need to have this. Meagan: Yeah. For the patients who do have the oversight of the OBs, do you have any suggestions? I feel like sometimes, at least here in Utah with my own doula clients when we have that situation, it can get a little confusing and hard when we’ve got an OB over here saying one thing but then we’ve got a midwife saying another. For instance with a VBAC candidate, “Oh, you really have a lower chance of having a VBAC. I’ll support it. I’ll sign off, but you have a really low chance,” but then the midwife is like, “Don’t worry about that. You actually have a great chance. It is totally possible.” It gets confusing. Paige: Yeah, and it’s like, who do you trust in that scenario? I think that’s where evidence comes in because I think midwives and physicians both practice evidence-based but some people may have newer evidence than others. I’ve worked with OBs who probably roll over in their grave when I say certain things because it wasn’t the old way but it is the new way. If somebody can come in with their own evidence and they’re like, “I’ve looked into this and I think I’m a good candidate for x, y, and z,” I think physicians respond well to that because they are like, “Okay, they’ve done their research. Maybe I need to do some research.” Meagan: Yeah. Paige: When they have that thought, they know that this is an educated person and I can’t just say whatever I want and they’re going to take my word as the Holy Bible. Meagan: Yeah. No, really. Exactly. It always comes down to education and the more information we can have in our toolbelt or in our toolbox or whatever it may be, it’s powerful so I love that you point that out. I think it’s also important to note that if you do have two providers saying different things, that it’s okay to ask for that evidence. “Hey, you had mentioned this. Can you tell me where you got that from or why you are saying that?” Then you can discuss that with your other provider. Paige: Yeah, and following intuition too. I think you can have all of the evidence in the world. What is your gut telling you too? Who do you trust more and what feels right in your body in the moment? I think we are all experts of our own bodies and there’s a lot that goes into a VBAC and stuff like that. It’s more than just the evidence. People have to feel mentally and physically ready for it too. I wish more people focused sometimes on the mental and spiritual aspect of it because I think a lot of people get ready physically but maybe mentally they weren’t prepared for the emotional switch there. Meagan: Totally. Thinking about that, Paige, I mean Lily, tell us a little bit about why you went the midwifery route. I know you really wanted to find the right provider. Lily: Yeah. So I think for me, I have always been drawn to midwifery care. I was a little bit of a birth nerd prior to even working for The VBAC Link or even having my own kiddos. Prior to my son, we had a miscarriage and an ectopic pregnancy so I experienced OB care with my ectopic. I was bounced around a lot in a practice and had OBs who were great and equally some OBs where it was such a rushed visit that I had an OB miss an infection in my incisions because my pain was dismissed and just some really tough stuff. When it came to getting our rainbow rainbow baby, I was like, I really don’t want to be in a hospital at all. I want midwives. That’s the route that we went. The very brief story of my son is that he flipped breech 44 hours into labor and that’s when we legally had to transfer to the hospital and I had my Cesarean. So in planning my VBAC, I planned to go back to the birth center and was a little devastated when it was out of our financial means this time. I was so panicked. I remember texting you, Meagan, and being like, “What do I do? I can’t be at the birth center anymore and I don’t want to be in a hospital.” We interviewed another birth center that’s about an hour away that is in network with our insurance and talk about trusting your gut, it just didn’t feel right. It didn’t feel warm and fuzzy. Those are the feelings I got with our first birth center. I loved them so much and I still do. Then I met with Paige and her practice partner, Jess, and I came in loaded to the teeth. I was prepared to fight with someone because that’s what I had in my brain and that’s what I expected. I sat down with them. They met me after hours after clinic. I sat down with my three pages of questions and by the way, if you are listening and you have questions, we have a great blog on it and some social media posts of the questions that I specifically used. We talked for over an hour and every question I asked, they just had the ultimate answer to. I felt so at peace after talking with both of them and I remember telling my husband going into it, “I’m really worried that I’m going to like these people because I don’t want to deliver at a hospital and then I’m going to have to choose a far away birth center that is out-of-hospital or providers that I like but it’s a hospital.” It just feels like everything has been serendipitous for us. Our hospital opened a low-intervention portion of their birth floor so I’ll still get to have the birth tub and all of the things, but truly have just been blow away by Paige and have just buddied up. She’s dealt with all of my anxiety in pregnancy and VBAC and all of my questions. It just feels like such holistic care compared to my experience with OBs in the past. Meagan: That is so amazing and I was actually going to ask how has your care been during this pregnancy? It sounds like it’s just been absolutely incredible and exactly what you needed. I remember you texting me and feeling that, oh crap. I don’t know what to do. What do I do? You know? I just think it’s so great that you have found Paige. Did you say that Jess is your partner? Paige: Yes. Meagan: Jess, yeah. I’m so glad that you found them because it really does sound like you are exactly where you need to be. Lily: Yeah. It made a huge difference for me and I just tell Paige all the time I truly didn’t know that care in a hospital setting could look the way that it does. I feel like I’m getting– I experienced birth center care. I had an out-of-hospital experience until we transferred and I can say with confidence that my care has been the same if not better with Paige and just having the conversations and the good stuff and feeling really safe and confident. One thing that they pointed out that I thought was great when I went in and asked all of my questions is that Jess looked at me and she was like, “Okay, it sounds like you have a lot of anxiety around hospital transfer.” And I did. With my son, that was my worst fear and it came true. I had a lot of anxious, what if I have to transfer? She was like, “The thing is there is no transferring. We can induce you if you need to be induced and we can come with you into the OR with your Cesarean if that ever happened to be another thing.” For me, that brought a lot of peace to know that no matter what, the provider that I know and feel comfortable with is going to be with me. I again, didn’t expect to feel that way, but it’s been a really great reassurance for me personally. Meagan: Yeah. It’s the same with a doula. Knowing that there’s someone in your corner that you know who you’ve established care with who can follow you to your birth with you in your journey is just so comforting. So Paige, I wanted to talk about midwifery care and also just lowering the chance of Cesarean. Sometimes people do choose midwifery care specifically because they are like, “I think I have a lower chance of a Cesarean if I go the midwifery route.” Can we talk to that a little bit?Paige: Yes, that’s true. A lot of people know that there are benefits to midwives but I think when people think of midwives, it’s just like, “Oh, it’s just a better experience. I trust my team more.” That’s definitely there. There have been studies and people felt more at peace and empowered through their birthing journeys with midwives than they did with OBs. It’s been studied but there is also a decrease in C-section risk. Your C-section risk drops 30-40% when you have a midwife which I think is a pretty significant drop. Meagan: Yeah. Paige: Yeah, especially when we look at the United States at our birthing outcomes and birthing mortality and C-section rates, it is way too high for as developed of a country as we are. I think that’s really where midwifery care is stepping in and starting to help lower those rates to get it down to where it should be. The World Health Organization has been nominating and promoting midwifery care because it really is the answer to how we get these C-section rates lowered and these bad outcomes lowered. Midwives also have lower chance of an operative vaginal birth. That would be with forceps or a vacuum or an episiotomy so lower chances of those things as well. Lower chance of preterm birth which is interesting and probably because one, we do take lower-risk people. I think that’s true but also because we are looking at it holistically. We are looking at everything. We are not just looking at you as a sick person. A lot of people look at pregnancy as an illness and pregnancy is not an illness. It’s just a natural part of life and we’ve got to look at the whole picture of life if we’re just going to look at the one thing too. I think that helps to reduce preterm birth risk. We also have lower interventions just overall. We’re more in tune with people’s bodies and we want to honor what their bodies are meant to do. Labor is supposed to happen naturally. It’s not this big medical intervention that occasionally happens naturally. It’s this natural process that occasionally needs medical intervention. The midwifery model is so important. I think when you go to the traditional medical model, you look at the present illness so they see pregnancy as an illness. What can go wrong? Don’t get me wrong. There are a sleu of things that can go wrong in pregnancy and you do have to watch for them. But I think with midwifery care, you know when to use your hands but you also know when to sit on them. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. I love that so much. I feel like we need– we used to get quotes from our podcast episodes and turn them into t-shirts and I feel like that is a t-shirt podcast quote-worthy. Oh my gosh. It’s a worthy quote. That is amazing and it’s so true though. Paige: It is. Meagan: It’s not to rag on OBs. You guys, OBs are amazing. They are wonderful. They do an amazing job. We love the. But there is something different with midwifery care. You mentioned preterm birth. I remember when I was going through my interview process to have my VBAC after two C-section baby and I finally established care mid-pregnancy because I switched. That was one of the things in the very beginning that my midwife was like, “Let’s talk about things. Let’s talk about nutrition. Let’s talk about supplements. Let’s talk about where you are at.” It was just honing in on that which I was surprised by because I figured she’d be like, “Let’s talk about your history. Let’s talk about this,” but it was like, “No. Let’s talk about what we can do to make sure you have the healthiest pregnancy,” but also started commentingo n mental stuff. It helped me get healthy in my mind. I just would never have had that experience with OB where they wanted to learn what I was scared about and what I was feeling and all of those things. Not only was I learning how to nourish myself physically, but mentally and it was just a really big deal. I do feel like it played a big impact in my labor. Paige: Yeah. A lot of people discredit how much nutrition and debunking fears and stuff like that can go because I think a lot of that– I mean, we look at nutrition-wise and we could avoid almost all of preeclampsia with nutrition alone which is incredible. I’m like, “I really think you should read Real Food for Pregnancy and people are like, “Oh, but it’s such a big book,” and I’m like, “But it’s so important to know this information about what we should be putting in our bodies.” 100 grams of protein– you’ve already got it. Meagan: I want to see how many pages for it. It’s got, okay. We’ve got 300 pages but it has recipes and all of these amazing things in the end so it’s not even a full book. Paige: Yes. People are like, “Oh man, I don’t know if I want to read the whole thing,” but I’m like, “It’s so important.” I think when people do read it, they come back and are like, “Did you know that I could decrease my risk of this if I ate more Vitamin A?” I’m like, “Yes. That’s why I wanted you to read this book.” It is a wealth of information and I have such healthier pregnancy outcomes when people follow that high protein diet and looking at micronutrients with their Vitamin A, their choline, and all sorts of things. Meagan: Yeah. All of the things that we talk about a lot here on the podcast because we are partnered with Needed and we love them so much because we talk about the choline and the Vitamin A and the Vitamin B’s and the Vitamin D’s. Lily Nichols, not this Lily on the podcast today, she also wrote Real Food for Gestational Diabetes and that’s another really powerful book as well. But yeah. It’s just hard because OBs don’t tend to have the time. I think some OBs would actually love the time to sit down and dig deep into this but they don’t have the time either. I do think that’s a big difference between OBs and midwives. What does your standard prenatal look like? When a mom comes in, a patient comes in, what do you guys do through a visit? Paige: Yeah. We follow the standard what everywhere in America does like once a month roughly in the first trimester and second trimester then when you hit 28 weeks, every 2 weeks, and then when you hit 36 weeks, every week. If you go to 41, we’ll see you twice in that week. We follow those stipulations but our appointments are a little bit longer. When you are in a big practice, a lot of time it’s driven by RVU use so the more patients somebody can see, the more they are going to get paid and the bigger their bonus is at the end of year. A lot of people feel like they are running through the cattle herd and they’ve been in and out in 15 minutes if that. At my practice, it’s a little bit different because we are not RVU based. We’re not getting any bonus. We’re not trying to see as many patients as we can. Will we ever be the richest at what we do? No, but that’s okay with me and Jess. We are small on purpose and we love to take the time. At Lily’s appointments, we always book her for at least 30 minutes because we know that me and her like to talk. We’ve done an hour for some people because we know there is always going to be that long conversation. Don’t get me wrong though, that fourth mom whose had three vaginal births and going for her fourth, she may be like, “Paige, there’s really nothing to talk about today and that’s okay.” Sometimes they are 15 minutes. Sometimes they are 30. Sometimes they are an hour. Our first appointment is always an hour because there is just so much to dive into with how we can be preparing ourselves, what does your history look like especially if they are brand new to our practice and we’ve never met them before, starting to build that relationship early on. It just depends on how far along they are, who the person is, and those things. But I do like that I can spend as much time as I need. Sometimes I tell my people, “Bring a book because I tend to get behind because I tend to talk to people longer than I book for,” but that’s okay. We know that we can do that because we are a smaller practice. I think when people are thinking about what kind of care they want, they should probably consider how are these people paid? Is it by how many they can see in a day? Because you’re probably going to get a different level of care than a practice that isn’t drive by those RVUs. Yeah, that’s a really good point. I feel like my shortest visit with my midwife was 20 minutes. Paige: Yeah. Lily: Yeah. Meagan: Which to me is pretty dang long because when I was going with my other two daughters, I think it was probably 6-7 minutes if that with my provider. I mean, it was get in. My nurse would check my fundal height and all of that and then oh, the doctor will be in here. Then came in, quick out. Yeah. It is really, really different. Lily: I know for me too, I love that we don’t just talk about nutrition and things like that but even in my last appointment, I was talking with Paige about the things that can be triggering coming back into labor and going back into a hospital so my ectopic pregnancy was at the hospital that I’ll be delivering at and I had to go into the emergency room and the way that you go to labor and delivery after hours is through the ER so Paige and I were talking. She was like, “I can just meet you outside. We will badge you in and we will avoid the emergency room if that feels triggering.” It’s just those things that you don’t get with an OB necessarily to talk through tiny little triggers. They are probably generally less accommodating to those little things of, “Well that’s just the standard. You’re going to have to get over that and just go through the ED and come on up.” I think that’s been huge. I also have a dear friend who is going to school to be an OB. I told Paige at my last appointment that she may possibly be at my birth. She’s my crunchy friend so she’ll be a great OB but I have such a desire to be like, “Come see a VBAC. Come see it so that you have it in your brain and you know that they can be safe and look at what can be done,” so I think that is so huge too as we continue to train and uplift our next generation of providers. What does that look like to show them? I think her internship or something is going to be a midwife and OB partnership practice which is really cool but I’m like, “Yes. Come. Come to my birth. Please. I want you to see all the things.” That’s really cool too and that Paige is open to, “My friend might be there.” Meagan: Yeah. Paige: Bring whoever. Meagan: I love that. I love that you were pointing out too this next generation of providers. Let’s see that birth and VBAC is actually very normal and very possible because there’s a lot of people who have maybe seen trauma or an unfortunate situation which could have happened because we blasted them with interventions or could have happened out of a fluke thing. You don’t know all of the time. But I do think if we can keep trying to get these providers, these new provider to see a different light, we will also see that Cesarean rate drop a little bit. We really, I always tell people that we have a problem. They’re like, “It’s really not that big of a deal.” I’m like, “No, it’s a very big deal. It’s a very, very big deal. We have a problem in this medical world.” I do believe that it needs to change and midwifery care is definitely going to impact that. I hope that what you were saying in the beginning how policies don’t trump a lot of the midwives. I wanted to ask you. This isn’t something we talked about, but is it possible to ask your midwife, “Hey, what policies do you lie under?” Is that appropriate? Paige: Yes. Actually, that was one of my favorite things when Lily came in to meet and greet us. She came and she was like, “What are the policies for a VBAC?” We dove into that. We’ve been diving into that and what are we going to be okay with and what are we not going to be okay with? That’s the beauty is that I’m not employed by the larger hospital system that I work under so I feel like a policy is not a law. I feel like there is informed consent and I think informed consent is so important but at the same time, there is informed declination and you should be able to decline anything. That’s true. We can never force anybody into surgery. We can never force anybody into anything. I think a lot of people aren’t having those conversations where it’s actually informed so then people are like, “Oh, they are just refusing everything.” I hate the word refuse because no, they are not refusing it. They are declining it because they are informed. They know the risk. They have all the information at their fingertips and they know that this is the best decision for them and their baby and we have to honor that. That’s why I’m really glad that I’m able to practice in that way, but I do know I’ve met and I’ve worked with people who feel like they are boxed in and have to follow those policies. We’ve started to talk about what our policies are with TOLACs and VBACs and things like that. One of them is that they are supposed to have two IVs. I’ve already gone against that before and I’ve had a beautiful, unmedicated VBAC. She walked in. I said, “We’ve talked about it. She was also laboring outside when we talked about it. It’s not an issue when you come in. You know what? When we get up there, I’m just going to tell them that you know why they recommend two IVs and you are declining.” She walks in and she’s clearly going to have this baby within the hour. I told the nurse, “We’re not doing the IVs. We’ve talked about it. We’re going to decline them.” That was the end of the discussion. We didn’t have to talk about it again which was nice. She shouldn’t have had to advocate in that moment for herself. We’ve already had those conversations. Meagan: Yes. Paige: Another one is continuous monitoring and the whole idea is if you start to rupture, that’s how we are going to catch it. The baby is going to tank and that’s how we are going to save the baby’s life. Don’t get me wrong. I think continuous monitoring can be really valuable for a lot of things but it’s actually not evidence-based. We have not improved neonatal outcomes with continuous fetal monitoring. We’ve talked about that with Lily and she’s going to opt for intermittent oscillation and I think that’s very appropriate because she plans to go unmedicated. Let’s be honest, if you are unmedicated and your uterus starts to rupture, moms will tell me that something is not right. This is beyond labor. Her saying that and being aware of that, we would notice it a lot sooner than we would the baby tanking kind of thing. Meagan: Yeah. I do know that with uterine rupture, we can have decelerations but like you were saying, there’s usually so many other signs before baby is actually even struggling and I know a couple of uterine rupture stories where providers didn’t believe the mom that something was going on because that one thing wasn’t happening. The baby wasn’t struggling. Paige: Yes. Meagan: It’s like, you guys! When it comes to continuous fetal monitoring in the hospital, people have to fight to have that intermittent. It’s yeah. Anyway. These policies are not law. I love that you said that too. There’s another t-shirt quote. Paige: I think people should start asking if they are planning a VBAC, start asking what is the policy and start thinking, is that what they want? I do have some moms who are like, “No, I want the two IVs because it’s hard for me to get a stick,” and they need that backup in case. That makes them feel more at peace but other people are like, “It makes me feel like a patient. I don’t like it.” People don’t like needles and that’s okay. They have that right to say no. I tell people that in a true emergency, we will get an IV in you if something really, really bad were to be happening. That’s part of training if somebody walks in off the street. We’re not going to be like, “Oh, when was the last time you ate? Sorry, you can’t have the surgery.” We know something bad is happening right now. We will get the IVs. We will do all of the things. Getting the IVs really won’t save as much time as people think it will. Meagan: Yeah, and there are other things. Say we are having our baby and we are having higher blood loss than we would like or we have some concern of some hemorrhaging, there are other things that we can do. We can put Pitocin in a leg. We can do Cytotec rectally. There are things that we can do. We can get that baby to our breast and start stimulating and try to help that way. There are things that we can do while we are waiting for an IV, right? Paige: Yes. I tell people that all the time. Most of the postpartum hemorrhage meds that we use can be given without an IV. There is only one that truly has to be given through an IV and that’s TXA but the rest can all be given other routes. A lot of times, those work better than IV Pitocin. Sometimes the ion Pitocin works better. Sometimes the ion Methergine works better. It’s not this, oh we have to have a little just in case kind of thing because if there was a just in case moment, yes. We can be working on the IV and doing other things. I have to be kind of secretive about it. I have tinctures and stuff with shepherd’s purse and yarrow. Those things actually have great evidence. They are really helpful for postpartum blood loss. I have a lot of moms who are more interested in doing something more holistic and natural before they try medication. Cypress essential oil, you can rub that in. I’ll have doulas use my cypress roller and give them a massage while I’m trying to manage the hemorrhage and that cypress oil can help a lot too. Sometimes going back to our instinctual, old medicine that we have been using well before medicine was used for birth. Meagan: Yeah. This is a random question for both of you. Lil, I really wonder if you have seen it or heard about this too because you are so heavily in our DMs. This is going to be weird. People are going to be like, what? But I did this. We did this because we weren’t sure. We cut the umbilical cord and put it in our mouth. It’s really weird. Paige is like, what? You put it down in the gum area like in between your teeth and your cheek. It sits there. Okay, you guys. I’ve seen it just a couple of times, myself included. Yes, I put my umbilical cord in my mouth. Yes, it’s weird. Paige: That’s okay. Meagan: It felt like a little gummy. It was fine. I wasn’t chewing on it. It was just sitting there. But anyway, it’s weird but with my other client too we did it and all of her hemorrhaging symptoms just went away. Paige: That’s cool. Meagan: I know this is really random but we just cut a little piece of our umbilical cord and put it in their mouth. Paige: That’s so interesting. So a piece of the umbilical cord or the entire thing once it’s clamped and cut and still attached? Meagan: They clamped and cut it, cut a piece, and put it in my mouth. Paige: I would be so willing to try that. I mean, what is there in that nun? Meagan: I don’t know. I don’t know, but it did diminish the hemorrhaging symptoms. Paige: Cool. Meagan: So very interesting, right? Okay, so are midwives restricted when it comes to VBAC on what they can accept? Lily, you are a VBAC. I was a VBAC after two C-sections. You can obviously take Lily. Could you accept me?Paige: Yes. Luckily in midwifery care, at least in Colorado, there is a lot of gray for certified nurse midwives. It’s not always black and white. VBACs are okay but there is no direct, “Oh, if you have this many C-sections, we can’t do it.” I think that’s because ACOG also strangely doesn’t have an opinion on that. They actually agree. There is limited evidence beyond one C-section. My practice has done several VBACs after two Cesareans. I don’t think we’ve ever done one for a third or greater than two probably because I think those people a lot of times don’t even consider VBAC and they just already have been seeing their doctor for their repeat C-section with each pregnancy. But I’d love to see more people going for a VBAC after multiple Cesareans because I think VBACs after two Cesareans have a whole different level of feeling empowered after that. I thin that’s really cool and even special scars and stuff, there is really limited evidence on all of these things and I’d like to see more people pushing the limits a little bit. Especially since I am in a hospital, I do have an OB hospitalist on call 24/7 at the disposal of my fingertips if I need them. We are close to an OR so I think if for somebody the fear is there and they are like, “I just don’t know if it’s more risky because of this,” I think it’s worth it to try because the more people who go for it and are successful, the better evidence we’re going to get from it. Meagan: Yeah. That is exactly what I am thinking. There’s not a lot of evidence after two Cesareans because it’s just not happening. It hasn’t really been studied and a lot of that is because people aren’t even given the option. Paige: Yeah. I’ll have people where it is their third or fourth C-section and they were never even given that option. They were told, “Oh, I was told I have CPD.” I’m like, “The chances of you actually having CPD are low.” Then you look at their records and it was fetal distress or something like that. Yeah. CPD is so rare. I’ve heard it so many times. “Baby is never going to come out of that pelvis ever.” That breaks my heart every time I hear it because there are times when I’m like, I don’t know and then an 8-pound baby comes out. We can’t go off of those things because the body does what it’s supposed to in those moments. Don’t get me wrong. Things do go wrong and C-sections do happen sometimes but yeah. To hear everybody has CPD just because they’ve had three C-sections, I’m like, I don’t know. That would be quite a few people. Way more than we know are true. Meagan: Yeah. We’re all walking around with tiny pelvises. That’s just what everyone thinks anyway.Lily, being in our DMs, hearing the podcast, understanding and seeing so many of these people and what they say, do you have any advice for them when they are looking for their provider or just any advice in general? Do you have any advice from a VBAC-prepping mom? Lily: Yeah, I think for me, it is to go into it open-handed. I think we hear so many horror stories about providers often and I think that’s why I went into looking for a provider with both fists up ready to fight and what has surprised me the most is just I think I said earlier that I didn’t know hospital care could look like this. I remember we even posted something and I had posted on The VBAC Link that a hospital birth can be equally as beautiful as an out-of-hospital birth and there were people arguing and people saying, “No, absolutely that’s not possible. That’s not a thing.” Gosh, how discouraging if we go into things thinking that we can’t have beautiful outcomes in different settings. Certainly, there are areas around our country that need improvement. There’s not a low-intervention floor at every hospital and there are not midwives who are doing what Paige is doing everywhere but I think the more that we seek out that care and look for that care and advocate for that care, the more we will see it. As much as it sucks that we have to be our advocates, it’s also a really cool opportunity that we pave the way for VBAC moms and the moms who have never had a C-section that we are paving the way for care that doesn’t end up in a Cesarean. I would just say to be open-handed and yes. You can be prepared to fight and you can be prepared with your statistics. Be prepared to ask the why behind questions, but ultimately, I think that care can be so much more than we expected if we go into it thinking, Gosh, well what can I get out of this and how can I make these things happen? Like Paige said, we’ve had lots of conversations around, Well, this is the policy, but the policy is not the law. I’m here to support you in that. At our last appointment, she was like, “Hey, make sure you bring your doula to your appointment where we are going to talk about your birth plan because I want to make sure that she is there, that we all hear each other, that we are on the same page.” I think that’s helpful too. And then having a doula. My doula was my doula with my C-section. She was with us. She was whoever was on call at the birth center actually and again, I think it was so serendipitous because she is a VBAC mom. I think I needed her then and I’m so stoked to have her now that she is just a really special human who I know is also always in my corner and constantly texting her like, “Oh my gosh, look at the new birth rooms. Oh my gosh, I had this great conversation. Oh my gosh, I’m so excited.” I think having your doula there to be your partner in advocacy is really helpful too. Meagan: Yes. Okay, that’s a good question too when it comes to doulas and midwives. Sometimes I think people think that if I’m hiring a midwife, I don’t need a doula and then we of course know that a lot of people just mistake doulas and midwives together. But Paige, how do you feel about doula care and working with doula care? Is it necessary? How do you work together as doula and midwife?Paige: Yes. I love doulas. I wish everybody had access to a doula truly because doulas, just like midwives, have been studied and they have better birth outcomes, more empowered births, and all of the things. Doulas are so important and doulas and midwives work really closely. I think a doula is there with that constant presence, that constant helping with anything and a really good advocate which I think is important especially if you don’t have a good relationship with your provider maybe or you don’t know who you’re going to get. Maybe you see 7 different providers and you get who you’re going to get when you’re in labor. So to have that doula there to constantly be advocating for you is such an important piece. Yeah, I really wish everybody could have access to a doula because it just makes a world of difference. I can’t think of any bad outcomes I’ve ever had when a doula was present. It’s just a different level of care. Usually, people who have sought out a doula have also taken the time to seek out and do all of the things that are going to make a healthier pregnancy and a better birthing outcome. It’s why I think everybody deserves doula care. It’s because it does lead to better outcomes. Midwives are always known to work closely with doulas and really support them. It’s a team effort. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. We love our relationships with our midwives here. It’s really great to just know how we work and know how we need to support the client and it is sometimes hard when we go to a hospital and we don’t know who we are getting. And sometimes that OB or that midwife we have worked with before and sometimes it’s a whole new face so it does bring us comfort to know that the client and the family know us and we know them and we can all work together. I love that. Okay, do either of you guys have anything else that you would like to say to our beautiful VBAC community before we go? Paige: I don’t think so. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This was wonderful and I just hope that everybody who is thinking about a VBAC really does their research and looks for the best provider and really finds that perfect fit because there are so many good providers out there– OBs, midwives, professional midwives, all the things. Meagan: I agree. It’s okay to interview multiple people. It’s also okay that if mid-pregnancy, the end of pregnancy, during, and even in labor that if something is not feeling right, you can request a different provider. You can go out and start interviewing again and find that provider that is right for you. Paige: Yes. Meagan: Well, thank you Paige and Lily for joining us today, and thank you so much for doing so much in your community. I really love your setup and hope that we can see that type of setup happening in the US because it just feels perfect in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yes. I’m loving it. Okay, ladies. Well, thank you so much. Paige: Thank you. Lily: Yeah, thanks, Meagan. Meagan: Bye. Lily: Bye!ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. 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