Julia Freeland Fisher & Luther Jackson: The Power of Networks

Career success requires more than just skills. Luther Jackson, workforce development expert and Non-Resident Fellow at Brookings Metro, and Julia Freeland Fisher, Director of Education Research at the Clayton Christensen Institute and author of Who You Know, join Work Forces to unpack the critical role of social capital in navigating today's turbulent labor market. They discuss the "network gap" and how intentional relationship-building can open doors to opportunity, especially for those from underserved communities. Tune in to learn practical strategies and discover how institutions can become catalysts for connection. Transcript Julian Alssid: Welcome to Work Forces. I'm Julian Alssid.  Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.  Julian Alssid: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.  Kaitlin LeMoine: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent, private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in.  Julian Alssid: Many of our conversations are about skills and different models of skill development and how we all need to carry our skills from one job to another along our career journeys.  Kaitlin LeMoine: But we also recognize that career success is not driven by skill attainment alone. One area that we're excited to dive into today is the importance of social capital along an individual's career journey, and we're excited to have our guests on today to explore this topic further. Luther Jackson is a workforce development expert based in Silicon Valley with a focus on preparing individuals from underserved communities for careers in high growth sectors. With extensive experience at the NOVA Workforce Development Board, he has led initiatives preparing individuals from historically excluded communities for well being careers in high growth industry sectors including software development and zero emission transportation. His work also emphasizes the importance of lifelong learning, professional networks and broad access to career opportunities. A non resident Fellow at Brookings Metro. Jackson also serves on several boards, including Hack the Hood and the Everett Program. He is a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania and a former labor union leader and journalist. And Julia Freeland Fisher is the Director of Education Research at the Clayton Christensen Institute. The Institute's research educates policy makers and community leaders on the power of disruptive innovation in the K-12 and higher education spheres. Julia is the author of who you know, unlocking innovations that expand students networks. Her work focuses on innovations that deepen and diversify students stock of social capital by enhancing their access to and ability to navigate peer mentor and professional networks. Julia started her career at New Schools Venture Fund. She holds a BA from Princeton University and a JD from Yale Law School. Welcome to you both. We're so excited to have you on the workforces podcast today.  Julia Freeland Fisher: Thank you. So excited to be here with Luther.  Luther Jackson: Great to be here. Thank you.  Julian Alssid: We get a twofer today, two experts for the price of one. Oh no, we don't charge for this podcast. I forgot. So to kick us off, would love to hear you talk a bit about your respective backgrounds and how you've connected in this work. And Luther, why don't you go first?  Luther Jackson: Sure. Well, again, I'm delighted to be here, particularly because I'm such a big fan of the podcast. My interest in social capital started early on in my tenure at NOVA workforce development in Silicon Valley. Our director at the time, Khris Stadelman, asked me to focus on workforce trends in tech, which, of course, is Silicon Valley's hometown industry, I came to learn of job seekers who, in my mind, checked all of the boxes for career success. They had graduated with advanced degrees from prestigious universities, and they had many years of experience in software development and related tech disciplines, and yet some had been unemployed for many months. So clearly something was missing. So this started me on a quest to understand what I call the career success equation. In 2014 we at NOVA surveyed and interviewed 120 tech professionals to help inform this equation, and we basically wanted to know, how are they able to thrive in a chaotic economy when a given day, some tech companies are laying off and hiring. Based on our findings, we wrote a report called Bridge to Career Success, and subsequently identified what we call the Five Truths of Career Success, what it takes to remain relevant in a disruptive economy. And those truths are self awareness, networking, relationship management, organizational reading, and mentorship. Well, guess what? These are all related to social capital. The Five Truths became the basis of career navigation curricula we developed for job seekers in both the heart of Silicon Valley and in historically excluded communities in the Bay Area. When I left Nova last year to start a consulting career, I knew I wanted to learn more about social capital programming and how it could be applied in the workforce and education ecosystem. So I talked to a number of national leaders who basically said, before you go out there and try to reinvent the wheel, you should be Julia Freeland Fisher. She's the reigning expert on this topic. Well, you know what? They were, right? And here we are. Julian Alssid: Great. So, perfect segue. So Julia, your background and a little bit more about your connection.  Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much. Luther, I mean, I have to say, being called the reigning expert is such a compliment, but it's also a testament to how boutique this topic remains so excited to be getting the message out there on this podcast. Yeah, so I think somewhat similar to Luther, but not at the same sort of level as a practitioner, I arrived at this topic of social capital feeling like we were talking about a very incomplete equation of opportunity inside of education. So I started my career in K-12 ed reform, which for a long time, and still to this day, is very anchored on test scores, post secondary enrollment, post secondary attainment as kind of the metrics of success. So we tell students, get good grades, go to college and the rest will work out. And as we all know, that's a very incomplete sort of formula, and in particular, we actually know that an estimated half of jobs and internships come through personal connections, but that truth remains kind of part of this hidden curriculum. So I think it especially becomes a challenge when we're talking about issues of equity and whether learners and job seekers have inherited networks into the industries that they want to work in, or if we're telling them, go out and hustle and find them yourselves. So that's really led me to spending the last seven, eight years digging into new models for deepening and diversifying learners and job seekers networks what our institutions, our schools and workforce programs, need to do to be more purposeful about that, and really just trying to, I think, hold our systems to account for not just providing people with skills. To your point at the beginning, at the top of the podcast, Julian, but like, skills are what employers care about. Employers don't care if you have a network, but if you're an individual job seeker, you got to have a network. And so I think we have to really recalibrate, like, how much are we building programs simply catering to employer demand rather than actually catering to what individuals need? To have optionality in as Luther described, an incredibly turbulent and hard to predict labor market. So that's what's led me this topic. Really excited to be here. And, you know, I think Luther is a testament to someone on the ground who's done the hard work of trying to understand this complex mix of currencies in job seeking, and excited to really zero in on this one of social capital.  Kaitlin LeMoine: Great. So I guess building on where you just left off, Julia, can you talk to us at a high level about what you know the work you've done. Can you tell us a little bit more about the research that you've conducted and the importance of tying your work to Luthers work? Because clearly you have quite the connection and a great partnership, and we'd love to learn more about that.  Julia Freeland Fisher: I see this as like a supply and demand problem. So what are the supply of programs and tools that deepen, diversify people's networks, arm them with the skills and confidence to go out and mobilize their own network. So that's really on the program side, and then on the demand side. How are institutional leaders and arguably philanthropy and investors paying attention to social capital and actually putting capital into financial capital into efforts to build it, you know, and what we've done over the years is really tight and try and document among programs. And I'm using programs loosely here. We could talk about a local nonprofit, a large, national nonprofit, anyone really focused on helping students and job seekers advance in their careers. Among programs that treat social capital as a programmatic outcome. What are they doing? And when I say, let me just double click on programmatic outcome, that means they are measuring their participants social capital gains alongside things like skills and credentials. So we identified, back in 2019 about 20 programs nationally that were doing that we dug in on what are the designs that they are pursuing? What is the data they're collecting to track whether their participants are, in fact, growing their networks in the course of their intervention, and even, what are they doing with their sort of alumni networks to ensure that relationships outlast interventions? One of the things I think we can all think of as individuals on this podcast and hopefully your listeners as well, is that, in an ideal world, your network is a renewable resource. It's not like you call up a friend or acquaintance once and it's one and done. New things come up in your life and you shoot them a text or an email. Luther as what I would consider a sort of medium to weak tie, right? We don't talk on a daily basis, but there's something in sociology called the strength of weak ties, which is that you're more likely to find new opportunities through your weak tie network. Guess why I'm on this podcast, because Luther invited me, right? And so, so thinking about really like, how are programs set up so that relationships outlast the interventions that they're doing with their participants. You can go to whoyouknow.org to find a bunch of examples of those program models, but that's really been the core of our work on the supply side, just trying to get under the hood of like, if you're designing for this, what does it actually look like? What do the ratios need to look like in a staff to student or staff to job seeker ratio sense, all of that kind of choreography. And then quickly, just on the demand side. You know, in an ideal world, every college president, head of workforce board, head of a nonprofit, would be prioritizing social capital as programmatic outcome, and that is simply not happening. That's partly because there's not a payer for it, right? Employers will pay for upskilling all day, but they're not going to pay, like I said, for networks. So I spent a lot of time trying to particularly influence philanthropy on this front to say, if you guys are putting patient capital into new models, new pathways to careers, you've got to help people design for social capital. And so I run a network of funders focused on on that.  Kaitlin LeMoine: So Luther, transitioning over to you, please share your perspective on some of what Julia just shared, and how you see this playing out from a programmatic standpoint.  Luther Jackson: Well, I'm both optimistic and a little pessimistic. So I'm optimistic because I've heard Julia speak before. Julia, I heard your recording from from a conference, and I sat there kind of spell bound saying, This is it. I mean, it makes so much sense. It's what we know. But I'm pessimistic, because, as Julia said, that a lot of folks are not taking this up as important in our systems. And you know, if you ask any workforce leader, any education leader, how you got your first job, how you got your current job, they would, of course, say professional networks, but but yet, it's not ubiquitous, and that's what it needs to be. And I again, I think that this is essential for all learners, job seekers and incumbent workers, and particularly as regional economies nationwide become more disrupted. You know, we used to say that the fast changing Silicon Valley economy is coming attractions for the rest of America, and clearly, most people out there crave stability. And I think a lot of the national economic angst that we're seeing these days comes from this loss of once stable Industries, a sense of loss and lack of access to good jobs that their parents and grandparents had, and as Julia says, networking is a constant. It's not something that you do when you need a job. This should just be part of your life. So we know what's important. We have the tools. Let's get about doing it.  Julian Alssid: Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting hearing you both talk about this, and in light of, you know, the work Kaitlin and I are doing and looking to close, you know, hiring gaps and skills gaps and, yeah, I mean, I agree with you, Julia, that, you know, there's kind of no buyer for this, in a sense. But isn't, aren't they just being short sighted? I mean, if employers aren't getting the talent they're they're not hiring the ever diverse people out there who are the ones who are going to have to replace, the boomers who are going away, the educators are not getting, you know, the enrollments they need. I mean, and yet we know what the skills are for so many of the jobs, and there's skills training. So what's wrong with this picture? And you know, isn't it more than philanthropy? I mean, obviously there's no buyer to pay for it, but, and I get the notion of the funders group, but shouldn't the employers and higher ed people be kind of realizing that this is core to what they need as well?  Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah. I mean, I love the push Julian, and I would defer to you to our host, to comment even more on the employer front, because it's where I've spent less time. I mean, let me start with the higher ed side of this equation. If higher education were to shift to an outcomes based market, what many of us in the field have been calling for for basically decades, in an outcomes based market, networks will matter more. So that would be an incentive structure where, I think suddenly you'd see community colleges, colleges, universities paying way more attention to their alumni networks, which are currently vastly under capitalized. 90% of graduates say their alumni network was helpful in their in their professional lives, which is bonkers, right? Because if you look at the shiny pamphlet and why you're shelling out all these tuition dollars, you're ostensibly buying a network, but that's not actually playing out in the kind of ROI formula, necessarily. So that on higher ed I can get there more easily Julian, because I think it's sort of within the realm of possibility that that those policies kind of advance over time. When it comes to employers, I have major concerns. Yes, it's short sighted, Julian, and I think some would say, well, look at our CSR mentoring program like they're doing things kind of on the margins around talent development, particularly early in the pipeline, right? But not necessarily with this idea of a diverse network for the mentees in those programs. What I'm actually really worried about, I recently wrote an article about this, is that in the age of AI, I think this is about to get way worse. We're going to see the real elimination of what Ryan Craig calls the first rung of the career ladder, entry level jobs, and so the incentives to invest in young talent are actually moving in the wrong direction, because all of the things that we have relied on young talent, or early talent to do, or entry level talent to do is suddenly going to be replaced in large part, by AI and so I would love, Julian, to see these sort of employers looking out on the horizon, I just think we need a completely different infrastructure connecting education and work to get there, because I think in the current incentive structure, you don't see employers stepping in to play that role. You see them wanting articulation agreements with very particular programs to ensure they have hand picked individuals. But that's not the same thing as the scale play that we really need on both sides of the market frankly.  Luther Jackson: Yeah, I do have a little good news on the employer front. So I'm familiar with the Biocom California Institute, which is part of the industry association for Life Sciences. They have a career readiness program for first generation college students, and these students already have technical expertise. They're biology majors, they're bio chem majors. They need professional networks and mentors, so they're very intentional about setting up these programs now, again, this is now kind of on a pilot basis, but still, I think that that's hopeful. The other thing I would say about AI is, and I could say this, I guess, being in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's a lot of hubris, obviously, around AI that we've sort of, you know, that AI could solve all of our problems, and what it doesn't fix is the whole idea of serendipity and being at the right place at the right time. And you can't really quantify that. But again, I could tell you lots of stories in my life, including how I got at NOVA, where I showed up at the right place at the right time. Julian Alssid: Great points Luther and Julia just, just to get back to the employer piece, I'm not even thinking of employers that are looking particularly far out, because, yes, AI is coming, and a lot of these jobs we're talking about are going away, but today, there are plenty of jobs in areas like biotech and advanced manufacturing where they're hurting for talent. And it would seem to me, this would be a really logical step to look at how they can help people network their way on in.  Julia Freeland Fisher: To make more people a known quantity to the employer and vice versa. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's absolutely rational. I think what I have seen in my research is that we just have a real dearth. And we could talk for hours about this, so I won't belabor the point, but we have a real dearth of brokers in our society.  People that are are those high touch matchmakers that are actually helping both parties come together? I mean, if you want any proof that that's the case, you don't even have to look in this in our industry. Just look at the loneliness epidemic, right? That is a lagging indicator on the fact that we don't have infrastructure dedicated to social connection at scale. And so, yeah, I think to not be totally negative, I think this is where there's new tools and models emerging that I think are doing amazing work. Career Spring is a nonprofit platform for any first generation student can log on and talk to an industry expert, and Career Spring, it's a nonprofit that has done all of the kind of vetting of people willing to have those conversations, so they're really scaling conversations that would otherwise be out of reach, that, you know, love serendipity Luther, but I don't really want to leave that stuff to chance all the time. I also want to sometimes take the chance out of chance encounters, right? And so I Social Capital Academy is another spin out of Cal State, Fullerton, founded by a professor who has recruited a national network of professional coaches and mentors who work with students on the weekends to prepare to interview for internships. Like models like these are starting to happen. And what I see there is not just a standalone program or a one off tool. I see a new species of broker that is starting to fill in some of these critical gaps that you're talking about, Julian.  Kaitlin LeMoine: Well, and I think you're starting to touch upon where my head was going to Julia around, you know, really? How can some of the how can these interventions be happening earlier on in a learner's journey, right? So, what can this be happening in the K 12 space? How can this be happening in the K 12 space? What kind of curriculum can be in place or, or, frankly, you mentioned earlier the concept of the hidden curriculum? How can some of these, these really important topics, be woven across a curriculum so that, you know, throughout a learner's experience in high school, there are, you know. Having more access to like, what does it look like to build the skills of self awareness, or build the skill, I think Luther you talked about organizational reading, right? What does it look like to read a space, to read anywhere, right? I mean, some of those skills are are lifelong and applicable to so many contexts. So just curious to hear both of your thoughts on on, you know, what does it look like to engage with with these skills earlier, just so that it's not a surprise, right? Like, once you're seeking a job?   Luther Jackson: No, I just, I just think they're essential. We know what's important. I mean, this is part of the formula. Everyone knows this. And I think the real there's some research as to why this isn't up front and center. I think that's that would be an interesting research topic, just to really understand why people don't share what they what they've been, what they've grown up with, and what made, what made things successful for them.  Julia Freeland Fisher: Yeah, Kaitlin, I think it's telling that you asked about the K-12 system and then immediately said the word curriculum. And I'll tell you why. So what we've looked at as we've tried to specifically support high schools doing career connected learning already, to kind of weave social capital into those efforts, we've seen very clearly that skill building can fit into the workflow of an American high school. So we are actually seeing new curriculum career launch, backers, connected futures, social capital builders. These are curricula that are not yet operating at scale, but are really focused on this particular skill set, around networking, self efficacy. It's not just communication. It's actually around sort of help seeking behaviors. And I have some hope there, for example, career launch where, full disclosure, I'm an unpaid advisor. They are integrated into Anaheim School District's entire ELA curriculum across their high schools, right? So every student who takes an English class, which is every student, gets some dosage of social capital. Building know how they're going out, having career conversations with people in their community, building that muscle, building that confidence, which is actually the moderating variable of help seeking behavior. It's not just I know how to talk to people, it's I'm confident, tapping my network. But what I want to name here is that social capital is not just a skill, it's access to networks, right? So if we're just teaching the skill, we're actually just perpetuating a sort of rugged individualism self help agenda, rather than saying we actually are going to open doors to networks otherwise out of reach. And so I don't think you were implying that, Kaitlin, but what I've seen in the K-12 system, as I have advocated for this, is actually the skills piece is starting to move the access and brokering piece feels really, really stuck. It's a different core competency. It's not baked into our policy incentives, and therefore we have, you know, what I worry is, we have done part of the work, but we're not addressing the whole of network gaps that we know actually matter immensely. Brookings, where Luther is, is now a Non Resident Fellow, did fascinating research on social networks in four major American cities, showing really troubling rates of segregation by race, class and gender, right? Depending on your demographic traits, you have very different access to a network in America, and that has huge bearing on your economic possibilities. And I think that's where I get real fired up. I will stop talking now. I get real fired up about this access issue because it's not just that black men in Charlotte don't have skills to network. It's that we have not created a system that deepens and diversifies their networks throughout their entire education, neighborhood, community, and career journeys.  Julian Alssid: It is a lifelong journey, right? And ever more so so Luther, what are what are lessons learned from your research and practice, and what are practical steps for our listeners who are seeking to be forces in building, you know, in build and building this, and building career and talent development programs and our tools.  Luther Jackson: First of all, I like to say amen to Julia's excellent point about access. That's absolutely critical. So I think the message for all stakeholders, whether students, job seeker, educate, educator or workforce leader is to be intentional and strategic about the work. Now our bridge report interviews revealed sophisticated strategies for how successful careers navigated networking meetings and even emails to colleagues, and the NOVA curriculum produced as a result of that, discuss networking theory, step by step of how to succeed. Now, I've actually tried some of these strategies myself, and I'm so full disclosure, I'm an introvert, so the idea of attending a networking meeting for me can be absolutely terrifying, but I was invited to a meetup group for autonomous vehicle enthusiasts, classic Silicon Valley Meetup group. And tried my habit networking. So they were serving pizza there, and I went there, and I tried to meet people, which was terrifying, and eat my pizza at the same time. Well, the result was indigestion. The next month, I went back to the same meeting with a strategy. I got there early, I said, I'm going to get my pizza and sit down. And within a minute after sitting down, someone came up to me and said, "do you mind if I chat with you?" And we had a great conversation, and I learned a ton. So that sort of thing about being very intentional about this. Don't assume that. As I've heard from in the community college space, some community college leaders say, well, these skills are sort of these are things you either have or you don't have be very intentional about it. It's critical. These are the differentiators.  Julian Alssid: Yeah. So Julia, love to hear your take on this as well, whether or not it involves pizza. What do people need? What do people need to be forces in this field and build this system that you're really talking about?  Julia Freeland Fisher: No pizza involved. But I, too, am an introvert, and I will, just as the researcher on the call, underscore what Luther said, that actually like mindset matters immensely in networking. If you think networking is like a vile exercise where you are going and sort of in a transactional way, trying to get things from people, you will, in fact, not enjoy networking, excuse me. But if you go in with a growth mindset around this is actually like a language that you learn, the results are quite different. That's research out of INSEAD. But I think couple biggest lessons for me, one is going to contradict what I just railed about five minutes ago. So forgive me, one is like to remember, if you're running a program that job seekers already have networks and they are likely under capitalized. So what does that mean? Oftentimes, the risk of doing this work that you hear on a podcast like this, or you hear Luther talk about this at a conference, and you say, Okay, I want to go do right by this is that the message that job seekers receive is you don't have a network, so you have to go to these networking events versus you are already awash in social capital, but you may not be seeing it as a set of professional opportunities. You may be seeing that person as your neighbor or a member of your faith community, and so some of this is about to Luther's point having a strategy to actually capitalize on your existing network. That's where the Connected Futures curriculum, developed by mentoring researchers that are really focused on this idea of initiating your own network, is is a really exciting resource out there, and it's free. Another lesson, though, is is back to what I said around relationships, outlasting interventions. I think in in education and workforce settings, I often feel like we're talking about students or job seekers as recipients of services. And then that's the end of the equation. As soon as you have invested in someone, they actually have capital that they can give back into a community that can be part of a regenerative renewable resource, so simplistically, right? That could be an alumni network that is very actively supporting your current participants. The premier example of this that I have seen nationally in my many years of research is a group called Co-op Careers, originally started in New York City and San Francisco. They support first gen college graduates who are underemployed, usually making very little money in those economies right to break into the digital economy. And their entire model is recruiting former participants back as captains or near peer coaches to support the next wave of participants. It's a flywheel, and they've been able to scale at an unprecedented rate relative to their sort of cost structure and nonprofit status given that model so really not viewing your participants or your stakeholders as just recipients, but contributors back in and I think the last thing I'll just say is, is reiterating, like, I can't tell you how many conferences I go to where we're talking about the skills gap, and no one says the word network gap. And so there's a narrative shift that has to happen if you say the word skills gap, like, can we just, can we just do a Control F say skills and network gaps, right? There's a vocabulary that if we don't say it out loud, we're pretending this major force doesn't exist, despite the fact that particularly people in power are awash in it. So I think that narrative piece matters to kind of trickle down into the field and into the strategies that start to get a little more attention, hopefully in the coming years.  Kaitlin LeMoine: No, absolutely, I do. I mean, I do think that connection between, as you said earlier, you know, the skills and the system, right? Like there's they're inextricably linked. We can't treat one without the other. And I appreciate very much what you're saying about the Control F, of really needing both, both of these pieces and considering both as we think about the future of skills, and, you know, especially with with the term skills being so front and center more and more. So as we close down, close out our conversation for today, how can our listeners learn more about you both and your efforts and continue to follow your work?  Luther Jackson: So I would say that we're evangelists, and we want social capital programming to be ubiquitous in our learning and training institutions. So I'd start with that. The other thing I would just say, from an access point, to underscore what Julia said, we believe that talent is everywhere. Opportunity is not. Our economy is fueled by human talent. It's no longer fueled by coal. It's fueled by human talent. This is, this is an imperative. We must be able to make these things work. So I would, the way I'd like to operate is to start out with, first of all, I think we'd like to know who are the others out there who have this hunger to really expand the programming for social capital, and how can we get them together and form a coalition of the willing? It doesn't matter immediately how large the coalition is just to get together and say, how can we get together and then strategize together about how we can build a movement. We want to meet these folks. We want to share best practices and really plan how we can influence others.  Julia Freeland Fisher: I'll echo what Luther is saying and that Luther went to that the second networking event with a strategy in mind. My strategy over the years is talk to anyone willing to talk to me about social capital. So that is our continued strategy. If you're listening and you're thinking about this, and you're doing work on the ground, or you're stuck because of either funding or measurement or some other barrier, you're hitting up against policy like, reach out to us, because Luther and I want to talk. Secondly, you can find all of my research to date at whoyouknow.org, that has case studies of a number of programs across the education and workforce continuum that, like I said, are treating social capital as a programmatic outcome. It also has a paper on it called the missing metrics, where we've created a whole directory of sample measurement items if you're running a program and you actually want to start collecting data on this. And then lastly, like an introvert, I post on LinkedIn, like once a month, but you can find me on LinkedIn.  Luther Jackson: You can find me as well on LinkedIn.  Julian Alssid: Well, thank you both so much for this conversation. It's great. I know we've barely scratched the surface, but hopefully it will help push this conversation forward, and people will come look for you, and you'll build that community, and we'll be happy to come and please be sure to have pizza.  Luther Jackson: Absolutely. Julia Freeland Fisher: We promise pizza an awkward conversation, like anyone on a nonprofit budget. Kaitlin LeMoine: Well, thank you both for your time. This has been a great conversation, and we look forward to getting it out there.  Luther Jackson: Thank you.  Julia Freeland Fisher: Thank you.  Kaitlin LeMoine: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our sponsor, Lumina Foundation. We're also grateful to our wonderful producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes at workforces, dot info, or on Apple, Amazon and Spotify, please subscribe, like and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.